Tournament brackets

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

And you believe that?

He's not supposed to - not so sure how well AD's (paid to trump up their schools) can keep their mouths effectively shut on discussions of teams within their conferences.

I'd ask our AD, but unfortunately he's no longer on the NCAA tourney committee.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Just because a team wins a tournament does not mean they're lucky. That's ludicrous. A team can hit a streak and be playing the best basketball of their season at tournament time. Was Villanova the best team in 85? NC State the best team in 83? Kansas in 88? No, but they found a way to win. luck has very little to do with it.

I saw every game of the ACC tourney and I can assure you that Maryland did not win because they were lucky.

I was looking at this similarly to Hawks Coach - not that you win because you're lucky, but you have to have some luck to win.

Granted, the game is almost all coaching, skill, knowledge, and fatigue - BUT - do you get a shot that rebounds out right to your best shooter? Does the close block/charge with 1.5 seconds left go your way? Does your opponent's leading scorer twist his ankle when he slips coming up court? That's the luck - maybe I should call it intangibles - that you need to win 6 in a row.

[BBall_Junkie]

3. Duke has had the most talent in the history of college basketball other than maybe UCLA and North Carolina. They are supposed to win with talent for crying out loud! For me, getting to the Final Four is not enough. I guess Coach Knight sort of spoiled Indiana fans by winning it when he went. UCLA had talent and won a lot of championships. Duke and North Carolina has had talent and IMHO their championships are not in line with their talent pool. Jordan, Worthy, Black, Dougherty, Doherty, Stackhouse, Montross, Wallace, Vince Carter, Jamison, K. Smith, Rick Fox, Hubert Davis, Williams, Sam Perkins, Haywood, Popson, Wolfe................Laetner, Hurley, B. Davis, G. Hill, T. Hill, the guy on ESPN, Dawkins, Ammaker, Brand, Battier, Burgess, Ferry, Wojohoweveryouspellit, Jay Williams and many others. Name me one other program that has had the level of talent that North Carolina and Duke has had in the last 20 years? Talent + so-called coaching greatness + not enough trophies = overated!

If you measure success purely based on NC's you are a tuna sandwich short of a picnic. Consistently in the Tourney, consistently advance to the latter rounds of said Tourney,5 ACC tournament championships in a row, many other ACC Tourney championships not part of the latest string, Numerous regular season championships or finishing near the top all of this plus Great Coaching and Talent= Rated right where they should be. When a program is successful it breeds two camps those that love them and those that are jealous of the success and therefore despise them. Coah K's program has had such success that the talent comes to him. This is a tribute to his success (He built it up from the ground as he was unsuccessful in his early years and the alum wanted to run him off, but the AD had enough forsight and testicular fortitude to hold off- brilliant decision). The best players want to play for a great coach and a winning program. If you are a blue chipper do you want to play at Penn State or Duke if given the option. The answer is obvious unless you have some overwhelming reason to stay close to home.

[tomegun]

Count me in as being one tuna sandwich short.

I want it all!

You might be one sandwich short. Would you rather:

A. Lose the ACC tourney and win the NC
B. Win the ACC tourney, make it to the Final Four and not win the NC

I would take A all day long! If that makes me one sandwich short then I'm hungry!

[Hawks Coach]

tomegun
We would all love to win the NC. Nobody has argued that point. By the way, who has won more than Duke in the last 15 years? I have yet to see that list from you.

It takes skill AND luck to win it all. Duke has the most consistent record with respect to success in the tourney, measured by NCs, as well as FFs, regional finals, etc. The skill and coaching always go their way, luck does not.

And if you have the most talent and consistently win more than everybody else, which Duke has, you are not overrated. you can argue underachieving, but underachieving and overrated are two different things.

If an NBA team plays a college schedule and wins all its games (as would be expected), but wins by less than the expected margin of victory, it was still the best team out there. It may have underachieved, but it was not overrated.

And if you think that a final four does not justify a 1 seed, then you simply are mathematically challenged and cannot understand the seeding system. A 1 seed means best in region, not National Champion. Win the region, you were the best in the region. How much simpler can I make it?

[BBall_Junkie]

I said PURELY based on NC's. Of course the goal is to win a NC every year and of course the Duke would trade a acc tourney win for a NC, but so many variables come into play that winning a NC for any program even with talent isn't always possible, injuries, running into a hot team, having a bad game,etc. Was Villanova better than Georetown when Nova won it all.... no. Was Duke better than UNLV when Duke beat them in the final four... no. Things happen. But if you consistently put yourself in a position to win it all, which Duke does, then you are not over-rated. I don't know the exact numbers but Duke averages about 25 wins +/- each year. How many other teams can boast that type of success? Those that can are not overrated either. Your over-rated argument, still does not hold water.

[tomegun]

OK, coach K is supposed to be the second coming but he has the exact amount of NCs as coach Knight. He has had way more talent. His talent level can only be compared to UCLA and North Carolina. I know they are different times with a different amount of players but there are more players and they are more physically gifted. Duke's success, as far as NCs go, does not compare to UCLA's. Now, don't get me wrong, I think Dean Smith was highly overrated as a coach also. That just made me realize, I'm not really saying Duke is overrated. I think they do get special treatment. I do think coach K is overrated as a coach. I think he is probably the best recruiter in history but when the tough gets going it can be a pain in the back I've known of others that have felt the same way in other levels of other sports. Some people still don't think Phil Jackson is a great coach. You might have a high school coach in your area and the knock on his team is the fact that he can't win the big one. I'm a 49er fan and I don't think George Seifert is all that good of a coach. He won two rings but so what, he had the best talent at the time. Plus he inherited the talent. Mike Tyson was a champion with some of the greatest skills of all time, is he considered the greatest of all time? If someone has never, ever said something negative about a coach with a lot of talent then they will have something to argue about but if you have coach K is probably similar to that coach. Do people consider Steve Fisher a great coach? He won when he had talent, he didn't when he didn't have talent. Coach K wins when he has talent and when he doesn't his back hurts.

Bobby Cox had the most talent for years and has one ring? Is he a great manager? Tony LaRussa? Mike Ditka? Lenny Wilkins has a lot of wins. Eddie Robinson has a lot of wins.

[Edited by tomegun on Mar 17th, 2004 at 12:15 PM]

[BBall_Junkie]

Yes, all great coaches/managers (except maybe Ditka... don't know about his greatness as a coach).

By the way, Coach K had a great seaons going in '95 (I think) had only lost 1 or 2 games and his back went out and missed the rest of the season. The team, who by the way was still very taleneted only won a couple more games the balance of the year. Next year Coach is back, and Voila... Back on top of the Men's basketball world. Don't tell me he isn't a great coach. Yes he has talent, but to be a great NCAA coach you have to be able to recruit. You seem to forget, he struggled when he got to Duke and essentially put Duke on the map with a winning tradition. Coach Wooden the Godfather of NCAA mens hoops?.... Absolutely. However different time. Smaller field, the talent pool was not as great at the time (he got all the good ones). Today many schools get blue chip talent due to the popularity of bball, year round playing, availablity of camps, etc. This equals greater parity across the entire NCAA and less opportunity to win an NC year in and year out. By the way Duke did not have the best recruiting class this year (although they got a good one in Livingston), Texas did. By your definition, I should go ahead and pen Texas in as the NC for 2005. I would be curious to see how Wooden would do in this era, he might still be just as successful but I don't think so... just my opinion and others may disagree which I would understand.

As someone else already stated you have to factor the intangibles in with winning an NC and you have yet to recognize this. Give me one other team as consistently good over the last 15- 20 years as Duke....That is a function of coaching whether you choose to recognize it or not. The measure of a great coach is not only winning some NC's but also, putting yourself in a position to win one on a consistant basis. Coach K qualifies.

And I would venture a guess, that if whatever school you pull for was looking for a Coach and Coach K was a candidate, you would want him.

[tomegun]

I don't think Indiana fans would want coach K. Not a chance, and if you were from Indiana you would agree. I can agree to disagree with you about coach K. You said all the coaches I mentioned were great coaches? George Seifert? Oh my. Now we know you aren't from Indiana and you aren't a 49er fan.
All this banter back and forth is all in fun to me. I just have my opinion. Debates like this are the most fun I have since my team is terrible. Oh, a lot of people consider Indiana's recruiting class the best except for the fact that the kid from Atlanta is probably going pro. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if Bracey Wright goes pro. It looks better in the future but not great. Before the salary cap being a 49er fan was a lot like being a Duke fan. We knew we would be in the hunt for a championship because we knew we would have the talent.
I lost the over-30 championship last week and I was bummed. The team that beat us was better, bigger, quicker and had more talent. We got a second place trophy for the season and a second place trophy for the tournament. Was I happy? Not a chance. I didn't tell my wife about it until later and the trophies are on my desk at work. If you don't play to win it all then you might as well get a Playsatation

[Edited by tomegun on Mar 17th, 2004 at 01:06 PM]

[PGCougar]

Originally posted by tomegun
... Now, don't get me wrong, I think Dean Smith was highly overrated as a coach also. That just made me realize, I'm not really saying Duke is overrated. I think they do get special treatment. I do think coach K is overrated as a coach. I think he is probably the best recruiter in history but when the tough gets going it can be a pain in the back ...

You're kidding, right? Yep, yanking everyone's chains a bit.

Are you saying Coach K bamboozles the recruits, obtaining the very best players using smoke and mirrors? Every year? Over a period of 15 years? Sheesh!

[BBall_Junkie]

No, I don't think Seifert is a great coach, what so ever. I was responding to your list of people at the end of your post. Seifert was mentioned but was not in your final list! Seifert proved he was not a good coach and that he thrived on talent given to him when he went to carolina. by the way I am from CA and went to school in the Bay Area (a WCC school as a matter of fact... go Zags- Normally, I don't cheer for them but if they pull it out then there is no reason why my alma mater can't do it in the future) so therefore I do pull for the 9'ers. Although, I would not call myself a die hard fan, come to think of it, I enjoy watching the NFL but don't have a team that I call my favorite. I mostly enjoy college bball and football as opposed to pro sports.

By the way, I am still waiting to hear, what coach/program has been as consistently good as Duke in the last 15-20 years?!

According to most of the major recruiting sources as quoted in USA today, Texas has the number one class based on the ranking of their recruits... amazingly enough mostly out of the Houston, TX area...
The top 3 are:
Dan Gibson- Houston(top 25 recruit and lead his team to a state title)
Deion Dowell- Texas City Top 25 recruit
Conner Atchley- Houston Top 100 recruit

I did see that Indiana, did have a good year and a nationally ranked recruiting class, but can't recall where they fell. Who do they have coming in?

Is Coach Knight a great coach? As much as I hate to admit it... yes. He was temendously successful at IU and he has taken a T Tech team that perennially(sp) sucked and put them in the top 25, and back in the dance 2 out of his first 3 years. As a person, I would say he leaves a lot to be desired. Self-Control is never a part of his demeanor. Where do you think Coach K (the Duke coach) learned from (in terms of coaching)? He will be the first to tell you that Mr. Knight shaped him as a coach. He just happens to be a better person (in my opinion) than Coach Knight. You never see Coach K fly off the handle and lose total control. Yes he gets angry with officials at times (expresses his opinion or dsipleasure- all coached do)and is not always an angel during competition. But he always is proffesional especially off the court. He is a class act and always conducts himself well. He is active in the community, the V foundation the student body, etc. The same can't be said about Coach Knight. And what is with the NASCAR like billboard that he calls a sweater?

Again, I guess we agree to disagree, I just can't see why anyone, looking at it objectively could say that Coach K is not one of the best ever to don a coach's whistle (Notice I did not just say whistle, because refs are the only true qualified operators of such a tool ). Oh well, I too enjoyed the debate!

[Edited by BBall_Junkie on Mar 17th, 2004 at 01:58 PM]

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by BBall_Junkie
Where do you think Coach K (the Duke coach) learned from (in terms of coaching)? He will be the first to tell you that Mr. Knight shaped him as a coach. He just happens to be a better person (in my opinion) than Coach Knight. You never see Coach K fly off the handle and lose total control. Yes he gets angry with officials at times (expresses his opinion or dsipleasure- all coached do)and is not always an angel during

Whaaaaaaaat???

K's a whiny little hemorrhoid! Whine, whine, whine! Got about as much sportsmanship when it comes to officials as the average fan. Clown is always in the running for the annual Jim Boeheim Whiny Coach award.

Him and Knight certainly are two of a kind, but Knight actually doesn't whine as much as K anymore.

[BBall_Junkie]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Whaaaaaaaat???

K's a whiny little hemorrhoid! Whine, whine, whine! Got about as much sportsmanship when it comes to officials as the average fan. Clown is always in the running for the annual Jim Boeheim Whiny Coach award.

Him and Knight certainly are two of a kind, but Knight actually doesn't whine as much as K anymore.

Thank you for your opinion. Tell me a coach who doesn't. Anyway you want to look at it he is a success, and what he does works.... get over it.

[Bart Tyson]

Him and Knight certainly are two of a kind, but Knight actually doesn't whine as much as K anymore.
[/B]

I don't care much for Coach Knight, However, I've never considered him to be whinner. He will throw a tamtrum. Now, my definition of a Whinner is Coach K, whinning throughout the whole game. Coach Knight Picks his spots and has a tamtrum.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Hmmmm, I thought I answered that question, didn't I?

The Big `10 game didn't end until 5:35pm. The show was at 6:00. CBS has to receive the brackets in time to prepare their TV graphics and [re[are their analysts. My guess is that CBS gets the brackets at least an hour before the show starts, maybe longer.

I bet we see a change next year, since the Chairman admitted such on live TV.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Mar 15th, 2004 at 07:33 AM]

Funny that you mention this because i do R&D for a company that created these graphics that you're talking about. All that needs to happen is that the info you want is in a database (or even a text file) and the application, RTX [utl]http://www.inscriber.com/products/Broadcast%20Graphics%20Toolkit/RTX/index.html[/url] will read that info and create the graphics for you. In essence, the design of the layout could have been done ahead of time and then once that info is available, presto, it's done. I'm sure that I could type in a text file within 25 minutes.

Should I cc: this to CBS? Maybe make a sale on RTX.