Back Over Centre

[hoopsrefBC]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

1) I'm assuming (partly based on reading the other responses) that the ball is really under A's basket, but it realy doesn't matter.

2) There's no such thing as a "front court throw-in". Out of bounds is neither front court nor back court.

3) Since there's no team control on a throw in, there's no back court violation on this play.

4) Since there's no team control on a throw in, the 10-second backcourt count doesn't start until A gains control of the ball -- not when the ball strikes the floor in the back court.

BOB

I believe that the 10 second back court count would start when the ball enters the back court and not when team gains control. There has been much discussion about this through-out our province. Although the NCAA rule book doesn't directly cover this topic there is an interesting case situation in the 2001 edition that can be used as a referance, A.R. #19, on page 105, part(c). The thing to look at is the comment at the end of the referance

"For men, the 10-second count shall start when the ball goes in the back court, while the 35-second shot clock continues to run."

keep smiling
SH

[Hawks Coach]

Without having the NCAA case book in front of me, it is difficult to know what the set up of the case that you describe (A.R. #19). It sounds like the case that was discussed in a thread a couple of months back, where B tips ball into backcourt. In that case, B has not established team control, so shot clock would continue to run and the 10 second count should start when the ball goes backcourt(unless you are of the opposite opinion expressed in that earlier thread!). The 10 second count starts because the elements are 1) team control and 2) backcourt status. In this scenario I have just outlined, A is able to pick up the ball because B was the last to touch in front court, but A retains team control throughout the play.

In the inbounds case described by hoopsrefBC (does the BC stand for Backcourt or British Columbia?), the reason it is legal for A to go retrieve this ball is different. Team A was last to touch, but can go get the ball because it has not established team control. No team control in front court no backcourt violation. No team control in backcourt, no 10 second count. 10 second count should start on team control in backcourt, which is established when A1 picks up the ball. This is all said without NCAA rule or case book, so I will concede that NCAA may differ from NF on this rule.

One more thought. Suppose A2 executes a controlled tap to A1 who is cutting backcourt after inbounding ball in such a manner that it looks like a set play (give and go). Can you determine that A2 established control? What if they run this play 3 or 4 times as a set play? If so, wouldn't we have a backcourt violation when A1 touches ball?

[Peter Devana]

SH, I agree with Bob- On OOB no contol -no violation- No count until control gained. In the example on P105A.R. I9 I don't believe this is a pass from a throw-in and in fact team A is in control therefore in that case the count would start and continue until B took control-In your case, the ball is out of bounds with no team control ever established. Although I don't have any recent NCAA case books I have many early ones that go a way back but quite frankly this aspect has never changed as far as I know in the last 50 years that Ihave played and reffed the game.I will look through those books and see if your case is there. I would appreciate comments from more of our NCAA "pros" out there so we can resolve this apparent confusion in B.C. once and for all! Also people here are convinced that it's 1 and the ball after an intentional foul and a good basket-see previous thread-We have to get it right!!!
YIBB
Pistol

[hoopsrefBC]

Originally posted by Peter Devana
SH, I agree with Bob- On OOB no contol -no violation- No count until control gained. In the example on P105A.R. I9 I don't believe this is a pass from a throw-in and in fact team A is in control therefore in that case the count would start and continue until B took control-In your case, the ball is out of bounds with no team control ever established. Although I don't have any recent NCAA case books I have many early ones that go a way back but quite frankly this aspect has never changed as far as I know in the last 50 years that Ihave played and reffed the game.I will look through those books and see if your case is there. I would appreciate comments from more of our NCAA "pros" out there so we can resolve this apparent confusion in B.C. once and for all! Also people here are convinced that it's 1 and the ball after an intentional foul and a good basket-see previous thread-We have to get it right!!!
YIBB
Pistol

Pistol,

I also agree with BOB....no violation.


FIBA intentional foul on a made basket is 1 shot and the ball is put back into play at the division line.

NCAA intnetional foul on a made basket is 2 shots and the ball is put back into play at the spot of the foul.


The reason i asked you about starting the backcourt count is there was a question on the CIAU test that was directly related to that situation and in our association there were about 90% that got it wrong.


[Edited by hoopsrefBC on Dec 19th, 2000 at 02:02 PM]

[hoopsrefBC]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Without having the NCAA case book in front of me, it is difficult to know what the set up of the case that you describe (A.R. #19). It sounds like the case that was discussed in a thread a couple of months back, where B tips ball into backcourt. In that case, B has not established team control, so shot clock would continue to run and the 10 second count should start when the ball goes backcourt(unless you are of the opposite opinion expressed in that earlier thread!). The 10 second count starts because the elements are 1) team control and 2) backcourt status. In this scenario I have just outlined, A is able to pick up the ball because B was the last to touch in front court, but A retains team control throughout the play.

In the inbounds case described by hoopsrefBC (does the BC stand for Backcourt or British Columbia?), the reason it is legal for A to go retrieve this ball is different. Team A was last to touch, but can go get the ball because it has not established team control. No team control in front court no backcourt violation. No team control in backcourt, no 10 second count. 10 second count should start on team control in backcourt, which is established when A1 picks up the ball. This is all said without NCAA rule or case book, so I will concede that NCAA may differ from NF on this rule.

One more thought. Suppose A2 executes a controlled tap to A1 who is cutting backcourt after inbounding ball in such a manner that it looks like a set play (give and go). Can you determine that A2 established control? What if they run this play 3 or 4 times as a set play? If so, wouldn't we have a backcourt violation when A1 touches ball?

British Columbia..


Since you said "controlled tap" i would probably call an over and back violation. However would i nomally not call this. I would only call this if i was sure a controlling action(two hands on the ball) had taken place. I'll give the benefit of the action to the player and let the players play the game.

[Edited by hoopsrefBC on Dec 19th, 2000 at 02:01 PM]