Waving the arms, "T" or not?

[Bart Tyson]

Last night I worked a HS game. On the way home my partner told me he assessed a T in another HS game. Play as follows; A1 does an awesome dunk, then he immediately runs down the sideline waving his arms up and down to the crowd in excitement. Beep T. (unsporting) I told him if he had done it to the opponents then you could call it taunting. To the crow, I didn't think so. What do you think?

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Bart Tyson
To the crow, I didn't think so.

Eat some crow, kid!

[Bart Tyson]

Originally posted by Bart Tyson
Last night I worked a HS game. On the way home my partner told me he assessed a T in another HS game. Play as follows; A1 does an awesome dunk, then he immediately runs down the sideline waving his arms up and down to the crowd in excitement. Beep T. (unsporting) I told him if he had done it to the opponents then you could call it taunting. To the crowd, I didn't think so. What do you think?

[Jurassic Referee]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bart Tyson

[i] Play as follows; A1 does an awesome dunk, then he immediately runs down the sideline waving his arms up and down to the crowd in excitement. Beep T. (unsporting) I told him if he had done it to the opponents then you could call it taunting. To the crowd, I didn't think so. What do you think?

I agree with you, Bart. That's not unsporting behavior. Therefore no justification for an unsporting T. Certainly not the purpose and intent of the "taunting" rule, imo.

[blindzebra]

Was it not a point of emphasis last year to include self promoting or playing to the crowd as taunting.Doing the raise the roof does both and by NF guidelines a T could be called.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by blindzebra
Was it not a point of emphasis last year to include self promoting or playing to the crowd as taunting.

It was this year's rulebook. Here's the POE:

A. Taunting/Self-Promotion: Players are increasingly directing their celebratory actions toward opponents, which should be interpreted as taunting and baiting, and penalized accordingly. Further, the committee is concerned with the trend toward players "playing to the crowd," attempting to increase attention and praise for their own individual accomplishments rather than toward the game itself and team achievements. While many of these actions are not specifically illegal by rule, extreme behaviors could and should be considered taunting and baiting of the opponents. Officials should remind captains and coaches at the pre-game conference that all actions and reactions should demonstrate appropriate sporting behavior.

I guess the question here is whether waving the arms or raising the roof are "extreme behaviors". Tough call.

BTW, the underlining is mine. It's not emphasized in the rulebook.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by blindzebra
Was it not a point of emphasis last year to include self promoting or playing to the crowd as taunting.Doing the raise the roof does both and by NF guidelines a T could be called.

If that's your interpretation, then I guess that you could call a T. I don't agree with your interpretation.

[footlocker]

Agree with Blindzebra, it is in the POE this year as chuck points out. The suggestion is to make it part of pregame with coaches and captains. I might hit my whistle before the inbound and let that player know immediately that the behavior is inappropriate and can be considered taunting. But for the record, this is more likely to happen earlier in a game than later.

I don't think I'd T him. Might let the coach know on a dead ball if it is later in the game what I think of that behavior and how I might interpret such self promoting.

(However, I was not at your friends game. Can't say that he was wrong considering this is a story twice removed.)

[mick]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

If that's your interpretation, then I guess that you could call a T. I don't agree with your interpretation.

JR,
Could the action be adjudged by perceived intent?
Could it be incitement, while performing such an act while looking at opponent's bench/fans as opposed to looking at floor, own fans/bench?

mick

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by mick
[/B]

JR,
Could the action be adjudged by perceived intent?
Could it be incitement, while performing such an act while looking at opponent's bench/fans as opposed to looking at floor, own fans/bench?

[/B][/QUOTE]Mick, I think that it's strictly a judgement call by the official, and that each situation you run into is probably different,and should be judged in the context in which it occured in that particular game.I agree that,if you think that the player is focusing his actions to the other team's bench or fans, a T is probably appropriate. I didn't think that that was the case in the play that Bart described, though. That one seemed to me just a case of an excitable ballplayer trying to get his own fans going. Jmo, but I want to be 100% sure when I call a T that that T was warranted. Any doubt in my mind, I try to keep away from them. Might whisper to the player to chill a l'il bit, though, if I think that he's coming close.

[Bart Tyson]

I didn't think that that was the case in the play that Bart described, though. That one seemed to me just a case of an excitable ballplayer trying to get his own fans going. [/B]

This is the way it was described to me. I didn't ask if the player was at Home or visitors. I don't think this would make a difference, what do you think?

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

If that's your interpretation, then I guess that you could call a T. I don't agree with your interpretation.

I did not interpret,I was not there,thus the COULD BE CALLED.If you have a spotaneous,non rehearsed gesture fine,
but something directed at the stands that only draws attention to the player IS taunting per NF.

[Jim Armstrong]

As previously mentioned, this type of action listed under
1. A. Sporting Behavior of the 2003- 2004 NF points of emphasis. In fact, it specifically talks about
"playing to the crowd" Of course there is always going to be judgment invloved, but it is pretty clear that the rules committee wanted this type of action judged as taunting of the opponent.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Bart Tyson

This is the way it was described to me. I didn't ask if the player was at Home or visitors. I don't think this would make a difference, what do you think?

[/B]

If it's an excitable player that's just trying to get his own fans going, I can't see any basis, or need, for a T. Nothing unsporting at all there, imo.

[HoosierBuckeye Ref]

Oh wait...

Last night in my intramural game, I was trail and called a foul up between the foul line and the arc and called it on the floor. I stepped in yelling "on the ground" and waving my arms to call off the shot.

Player then procedes to start waving his arms mocking my selling of the call. Bam, T.

Might have been the same kid who chased me off the court . . . even though he won.