Maybe it would be better if I just didn't know the rules

[ChuckElias]

Posted a couple weeks ago about a situation regarding slapping the backboard, where I got the call right and my partner told me I'd be better off calling it wrong. http://www.officialforum.com/thread/12067

Yesterday, same gym! New partner, tho. Very early in game and the home team goes scoreless for a while. After they finally score, the drummer from the school band gives a drum roll and cymbal crash. Not a solo, by any stretch, but there it was.

I'm thinking. . . He can't do that, right? It's only supposed to be during TO's right? Or is it any dead ball? No, just during TO's. So then I think it's probably just for the first basket, like some teams used to stand until they scored.

Nope, next basket, same thing. I turn and make a quick gesture like "no more". Next basket, same drum roll. I turn again and make a more emphatic gesture, like waving off a basket.

Finally we get a TO and the conductor comes over and says we've been doing this for 5 years. (Yeah, and yesterday's ref let the girls play with earrings, too ) I said, "Well, please don't do it today. Thank you."

So when we go to the table at halftime, somebody from game management comes over and asks what the deal is and I tell him. My partner, who's the R, says he didn't even notice it and as long as the visitors don't complain, he doesn't care if they drum. So I went along. Then we looked it up in the locker room, and decided that the rule really is that they shouldn't do it; but again, as long as nobody complained, we wouldn't stop it.

He said that he felt it was his job to be aware of the court and if he took his focus off of that to be aware of the band, he's not doing his job. I feel that it's my job to be aware of everything.

I don't want to be pidgeon-holed as a "rulebook official". Yeah, that guy knows the rules, but you sure don't want him on your game. But this was such an obvious infraction that would take so little effort to correct, why let it slide? I'm frustrated by knowing the rule and not having my partners support me on it. The more I think about these couple of incidents, the more they bother me. I just can't seem to find the right balance, and it bugs me.

Lastly, I know I should've just gone to game management first. But I hoped that one small request would take care of it.

[mick]

Get in.
Get done.
Get out.

[RookieDude]

This post is coming from a 40+ year old guy that has officiated 15 years...not a Rookie as the name implies.

Chuck, you seem like a very intelligent guy. Your rules knowledge is superb and you are highly respected on this forum.
BUT, I must say...if you are worried about a band member doing something with his drum during a game and your R dosen't care (along with apparently no one else in the gym)you are indeed getting to "rule booky".

You are probably at the point where calling the game is coming very easy...so therfore, you may go "looking for stuff".
IMHO I would just say call the game and pick your rule book battles a little more wisely. BTW, I thought you did a great job not pressing the issue with your partner...you told him what the rule was and you BOTH decided against enforcing it. I would venture to bet you BOTH didn't enforce the Coach's Box rule to the letter that game either.
So don't sweat the little stuff, unless of course you have an anal assignor, then do what ya gotta do for your area.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by RookieDude
This post is coming from a 40+ year old guy that has officiated 15 years...not a Rookie as the name implies.

Chuck, you seem like a very intelligent guy. Your rules knowledge is superb and you are highly respected on this forum.
BUT, I must say...if you are worried about a band member doing something with his drum during a game and your R dosen't care (along with apparently no one else in the gym)you are indeed getting to "rule booky".

You are probably at the point where calling the game is coming very easy...so therfore, you may go "looking for stuff".
IMHO I would just say call the game and pick your rule book battles a little more wisely. BTW, I thought you did a great job not pressing the issue with your partner...you told him what the rule was and you BOTH decided against enforcing it. I would venture to bet you BOTH didn't enforce the Coach's Box rule to the letter that game either.
So don't sweat the little stuff, unless of course you have an anal assignor, then do what ya gotta do for your area.

I gotta disagree completely. The rule about noisemakers was put in place for a reason, and it IS NOT a little thing. An eighth-inch of shoe rubber on the outside edge of the line at the top of the key for three and a half seconds is a little thing. A drum roll plus cymbal after every home basket is a big thing. Chuck is not "looking for stuff". If his league had specifically overruled this rule, then he'd have to ignore it. Otherwise, it matters, and it should be enforced.

[RookieDude]

Originally posted by rainmaker
I gotta disagree completely...it IS NOT a little thing

...and here, Chuck is one of your many "defenders" that will come to bat for you...which is great, if you are looking for a "Mutual Admiration Society". I think you want to hear opposing views, Chuck, therefore my post.

Again, I just gave MY opinion on the little stuff issue...do what YOU think will make it a better game.
Whatever you choose on this issue dosen't make you a bad official, IMO.

Last night, I did a playoff game between two cross town rival teams fighting for a spot in the Regional tourney. Packed gym, 3000+ screaming fans. My assignor was there. If I had stopped the game to discuss some issue with the band he may or may not have thought it was needed. If I had T'd the Coaches up for stepping out on the court, as they did numerous times, he may or may not have liked it. I guess what I am saying is...that is not my style and it has served me well in the past. My fellow officials...do what you think is good game management. Have a philosophy. If your philosophy is getting everything "by the book"...fine, maybe it will work in your area.


[Edited by RookieDude on Feb 22nd, 2004 at 09:54 AM]

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by RookieDude
...and here, Chuck is one of your many "defenders" that will come to bat for you...which is great, if you are looking for a "Mutual Admiration Society". I think you want to hear opposing views, Chuck, therefore my post.

Rookie -- I'm feeling a little under the weather today, and don't have the energy to be offended by this. Sorry if you were trying to get under my skin, I can't deal with it today.

The best HS ref in this area, who consistently gets the most votes from coaches, partners, and assignors is great looking, has the calm quiet presence that keeps the game flowing well, AND enforces the rules right down to the letter. My aspiration is to be like him, and if he can get away with enforcing this everytime, I guess I can too, and maybe even Chuck (although CHuck isn't as tall as John).

[mick]

Originally posted by RookieDude

Again, I just gave MY opinion on the little stuff issue...

RookieDude,
I agree with Chuck's implication that sometimes ignorance is bliss, and Chuck didn't "completely" disagree with you. Juulie did.

It must have been a big thing to her by "completely" disagreeing and a minor thing to Chuck; after all, Chuck did not push on enforcement.

We all know that our job is easiest when teams follow the rules. Of course, the teams we enjoy officiating don't put us between the rules and "tolerable practices".

I let rules slide, and it bothers me, with regard to uniforms for example, but if it's okay with "the other team" and my partners, I'll let 'er go. (...Okay being defined as being no participants are gonna "make a deal about it.")

Had I been the R, for Chuck, I would have *asked* them stop if Chuck was really offended, because I know the rules. (I don't think he was.)
If I was Juulie's R, I would have asked them to stop.
If I was your R, I would have asked them to stop if I was really offended, eventhough you were willing to let it slide.

I "completely" agree with you, that we must ask "do what YOU think will make it a better game".

I would have had to have been there to make my own determination.
mick

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by RookieDude

...and here, Chuck is one of your many "defenders" that will come to bat for you...which is great, if you are looking for a "Mutual Admiration Society". I think you want to hear opposing views, Chuck, therefore my post.

Again, I just gave MY opinion on the little stuff issue...do what YOU think will make it a better game.

I think that maybe you are missing something here,Rookie. Rainmaker gave you her opinion.Just because it is different from your opinion, it doesn't mean that the reason it's different is because it's coming from a "Mutual Admiration Society" member. It simply means that it is her opinion that your opinion is wrong. Is there any particular reason that anyone should have any less respect for her opinion as opposed to your opinion, whether they agree with either of those opinions? If you think that Juulie isn't capable of thinking on her own, or making up her own mind on a subject, then you haven't been reading this forum very closely.

Sure sounds like you're the one that doesn't want to hear opposing views,Rook.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by RookieDude
if you are worried about a band member doing something with his drum during a game and your R dosen't care (along with apparently no one else in the gym)you are indeed getting to "rule booky".

You are probably at the point where calling the game is coming very easy...so therfore, you may go "looking for stuff".

Rook, I would honestly say that I wasn't "worried" about it. I just noticed it. Couldn't help it, really. The band was just off the endline and I happened to be the Lead for the few times that I noticed it. They were only about 10 feet away from me. I really wasn't "looking for stuff". It was just there.

This is exactly why I titled this thread the way I did. If I didn't know the rule, then I wouldn't have even bothered to look at the band. Heck, does it even matter when they play? If I didn't know the rule, I wouldn't notice wrong-colored t-shirts with uneven sleeves and writing on the back. The "problem" is that I do know the rule and so when it's being broken I notice it. Maybe I'll just stop reading the book. Then I won't notice it. :shrug:

IMHO I would just say call the game and pick your rule book battles a little more wisely.

Ok, that last bit was silly. I'm not really going to stop checking the rule book. But here's a serious question. Which "rule book battles" are worth fighting? Again, this is an honest question. Thunder sticks? Players sitting during a 30-second TO? Rosters in by the 10-minute mark? T-shirts? Rubber bands on the ankles? All these things are very nit-picky technical things. What kinds of technical rule book issues are worth enforcing, and which in your opinion are not? This is not sarcasm. I'd like some guidelines.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ChuckElias


I don't want to be pidgeon-holed as a "rulebook official". Yeah, that guy knows the rules, but you sure don't want him on your game. But this was such an obvious infraction that would take so little effort to correct, why let it slide? I'm frustrated by knowing the rule and not having my partners support me on it. The more I think about these couple of incidents, the more they bother me. I just can't seem to find the right balance, and it bugs me.

Chuck, have you talked to your assignor/evaluator/interpreter/whoever about these calls? If they have strong views on it, then do what they suggest. I would imagine that their main concern would be that the officials in their games have unanimity in their application of the rules. If this game was from a league that doesn't really have anyone responsible for official evaluation, then do what you think is best- when you are the R.

Something to talk about at your next meeting.

[WinterWillie]

[/i][QUOTE]Originally posted by RookieDude
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by rainmaker

[Edited by RookieDude on Feb 22nd, 2004 at 09:54 AM] [/i]

I believe an excellent example for your thread is the coach's box (and that is on the court). A strict interpretation of this rule would eject most coaches (from D1 on down) within the first ten minutes of every game. Unless you have ejected a coach for being on the court during a game (which potentially could be hazardous to your health), I wouldn't be losing any sleep over the band thing.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by RookieDude

Last night, I did a playoff game between two cross town rival teams fighting for a spot in the Regional tourney. Packed gym, 3000+ screaming fans. My assignor was there.

Seems you should change your screen name to Mr Big Time, eh rook?

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
I don't want to be pidgeon-holed as a "rulebook official". Yeah, that guy knows the rules, but you sure don't want him on your game. But this was such an obvious infraction that would take so little effort to correct, why let it slide? I'm frustrated by knowing the rule and not having my partners support me on it. The more I think about these couple of incidents, the more they bother me. I just can't seem to find the right balance, and it bugs me.

You would have not been considered a rulebook official if you were using common sense. And the common sense thing was for them to stop. Because the minute they did this on a crucial situation, then the visiting team could and would complain and have a legitimate beef about the noise. I think your concern was not only right, but well thought out.

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Lastly, I know I should've just gone to game management first. But I hoped that one small request would take care of it.

I think this was your only mistake. Because you know they are going to debate what they can do and are no responsible for the game. Game management is there to assist you directly in running the game. You should have stopped the game, then had Game management take care of the situation. If does not matter if the visiting team complains, but when they complains can cause much more problems in the long run.

Peace

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Posted a couple weeks ago about a situation regarding slapping the backboard, where I got the call right and my partner told me I'd be better off calling it wrong. http://www.officialforum.com/thread/12067

Yesterday, same gym! New partner, tho. Very early in game and the home team goes scoreless for a while. After they finally score, the drummer from the school band gives a drum roll and cymbal crash. Not a solo, by any stretch, but there it was.

I'm thinking. . . He can't do that, right? It's only supposed to be during TO's right? Or is it any dead ball? No, just during TO's. So then I think it's probably just for the first basket, like some teams used to stand until they scored.

Nope, next basket, same thing. I turn and make a quick gesture like "no more". Next basket, same drum roll. I turn again and make a more emphatic gesture, like waving off a basket.

Finally we get a TO and the conductor comes over and says we've been doing this for 5 years. (Yeah, and yesterday's ref let the girls play with earrings, too ) I said, "Well, please don't do it today. Thank you."

Wait...you were there a few weeks ago? Did you not notice the drumming then (maybe the 30,000 fans drowned out the drum?) or was the conductor stretching the truth a bit?

So when we go to the table at halftime, somebody from game management comes over and asks what the deal is and I tell him. My partner, who's the R, says he didn't even notice it and as long as the visitors don't complain, he doesn't care if they drum. So I went along. Then we looked it up in the locker room, and decided that the rule really is that they shouldn't do it; but again, as long as nobody complained, we wouldn't stop it.

He said that he felt it was his job to be aware of the court and if he took his focus off of that to be aware of the band, he's not doing his job. I feel that it's my job to be aware of everything.

A few weeks ago B travelled a loooong distance too play in a gym with no supporters. Not even their bus driver cared. Now, normally the games I work have at least 300,000 people in the stands but for some reason there were only 30 in attendance for this one. It was a close game and to open the second half B's bench would hoop it up after each B basket. Nothing vulgar or unsporting, just loud yelling & cheering and there was one kid who yelled this high pitched "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYY". Man, was that annoying! I was getting to the point where I might have to say something to coach B...I had no idea what though and I decided I should just ride it out. Luckily the 30 fans started their own cheering after every A basket and soon enough the entire thing settled down. Point is yes we do need to be aware of everything but there's so much to be aware of sometimes we need to filter some stuff out. Clearly in your case the rule was violated but as long as the visitors didn't complain... :shrug:

I don't want to be pidgeon-holed as a "rulebook official". Yeah, that guy knows the rules, but you sure don't want him on your game. But this was such an obvious infraction that would take so little effort to correct, why let it slide? I'm frustrated by knowing the rule and not having my partners support me on it. The more I think about these couple of incidents, the more they bother me. I just can't seem to find the right balance, and it bugs me.

Lastly, I know I should've just gone to game management first. But I hoped that one small request would take care of it.

I think it might have been better to have said something to your partner, at least he would have been prepared when asked about it and might have backed you up when questioned by game management...or not.

BTW, for Mr Big Ti...errr...Rookie Dude: I've actually worked with Chuck, and unless he's really improved I doubt seriously that the games are easy for him to call...

[Nevadaref]

Chuck,
Please enforce the rules as you know them. If they are doing something improper, then either put a stop to it or penalize it. If you "let it slide", you are making it tougher for the next official who comes in there and does it right. The biggest gripe I have about my association is that most of them don't enforce the rules and this makes my job much harder.
I do have a rep for being rule booky, but I don't care. I do think that I can decide what is trivial and what is necessary for a better game.
The best compliment that I have ever had was from an official who had the game the night after I was at a school noted for being trouble. He told me that it was the easiest game he had ever worked, no one made a peep. When I told him that I was there last night he asked me, "Oh really, how did your game go?"
For the record, I had T'd the asst. coach, the head coach, removed the drummer from band, two fathers from the crowd, called 2 intentionals, and a flagrant.
2 Lessons:
1. The bad behavior can be fixed, if we are willing to do something about it.
2. If you take care of business, those that follow won't have to clean up your mess.

Here's a good story from earlier this year:
I had a senior-night game and the home management wanted to put 20 minutes on the clock for halftime. I was the R and told them that the most I could give them was 15. The opposing coach knew it was senior night and anticipated an extended halftime, but hadn't been specifically told how long. We went with 15.
Also this school's nickname is Railroaders, and they built a little train whistle which they blow after every basket they score. I knew about this before the game from watching an earlier game in this gym, and had the train whistle removed before the game even started. Of course, I got the response, "You are the first ref that's said anything all year."

Now here's the funny part. This school has a new principal this year and she is the wife of one of the veteran officials in our association. He is a good one too, and does care about the rules and getting it right. He worked the 4A boys state title game last year.
Well, she came home and complained to him about both of these things. She was terribly upset that the kids couldn't have 5 more minutes for their once-in-a-lifetime activities.
He said that I did the right thing with the train whistle and would have done the same himself, but didn't know what the rule was for halftime.
Then he asked her who the referee was. When she told him it was me, he replied that if I said that was the rule, then you can bet your last dollar it's the rule! He then fetched his rules book and looked it up, just so she could see it. He then made the case that with HS kids safety is primary and the purpose of the rule is to prevent injuries from muscle pulls, etc.
Who won the argument?

He didn't get dinner that night.