The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 11, 2004, 10:49am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 149
There is a game situation that has always bothered me. It happens in a fast boys game. When a dribbler charges into the paint for a layup and crashes into the chest of a defender with legal guarding position, it is an easy player control call. But, as happened last night, the defender is set up in the paint and not moving. The dribbler charges in and goes to one side enough to get his head and shoulders around the defender before contact occurs. A body on the floor. A call has to be made quickly. I called a block. My "logic" is that the defender never aquired legal guarding position; he never got in front of the defender, facing him, with both feet on the floor. But in reality, he was intitled to the spot he was in because he WAS there first and he never moved. I hope that you can envision the situation I am trying to describe with words. Had the defender lifted a foot off the floor to move in, the call would have been a no brainer, but he never moved a muscle. Had he not ended up on the floor, I would likely have no called it. I have seen this situation many times and I have never been comfortable with it. I am not satisfied that either call-a charge nor a block is a really good call but something had to be called. Can anyone offer any insight regarding this situation.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 11, 2004, 11:05am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Just north of hell
Posts: 9,250
Send a message via AIM to Dan_ref
Quote:
Originally posted by Ralph Stubenthal
There is a game situation that has always bothered me. It happens in a fast boys game. When a dribbler charges into the paint for a layup and crashes into the chest of a defender with legal guarding position, it is an easy player control call. But, as happened last night, the defender is set up in the paint and not moving. The dribbler charges in and goes to one side enough to get his head and shoulders around the defender before contact occurs. A body on the floor. A call has to be made quickly. I called a block. My "logic" is that the defender never aquired legal guarding position; he never got in front of the defender, facing him, with both feet on the floor. But in reality, he was intitled to the spot he was in because he WAS there first and he never moved. I hope that you can envision the situation I am trying to describe with words. Had the defender lifted a foot off the floor to move in, the call would have been a no brainer, but he never moved a muscle. Had he not ended up on the floor, I would likely have no called it. I have seen this situation many times and I have never been comfortable with it. I am not satisfied that either call-a charge nor a block is a really good call but something had to be called. Can anyone offer any insight regarding this situation.
Hmmmm....2 things come to mind -

LGP acquired when the defender has both feet on the playing court facing his opponent. Hard to see how A1 could do what he did without B1 facing him, so more than likely B1 has LGP. Agree?

Once A1 gets head & shoulders by B1 the responsibility for illegal contact shifts to B1. Not completely of course, but worth thinking about.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 11, 2004, 11:13am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 14,616
Quote:
Originally posted by Ralph Stubenthal
...something had to be called.

Why?
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 11, 2004, 11:16am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 1,847
Just because a body ends up on the floor doesn't mean a foul has occurred. Often in plays like these, the player with the ball has to make such an acrobatic move to avoid contact with the defender (or slight contact that's not foul-worthy), he comes down off balance and crashes. Along those same lines, the defender, either anticipating contact or flopping to try and suck you into a charge call, ends up on the floor for no apparent reason. Not all contact is a foul. Not all bodies on the floor got there because of a foul. Kids fall down. They usually get back up. Life goes on.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 11, 2004, 11:23am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Wheeling, IL
Posts: 267
Just my opinion, (and the way I called it last night). Defender is entitled to the space he is standing in on the floor, regardless of who he is defending. If a player crashes into him, causing displacement or advantage/disadvantage, he cannot be at fault. He has done nothing to initiate the play or the contact. He is legally standing in a position on the floor.

In your case the offensive player "slides" around him, or at least leans his head and shoulders past the defender. Defender still hasn't moved and is still entitled to his space. The only question that remains is advantage/disadvantage. If the offensive player has knocked him down, taking away any chance at a rebound on a miss, than I say you have an offensive foul.

Grail
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 11, 2004, 11:41am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 9,466
Send a message via AIM to rainmaker
Quote:
Originally posted by Grail
Just my opinion, (and the way I called it last night). Defender is entitled to the space he is standing in on the floor, regardless of who he is defending. If a player crashes into him, causing displacement or advantage/disadvantage, he cannot be at fault. He has done nothing to initiate the play or the contact. He is legally standing in a position on the floor.

In your case the offensive player "slides" around him, or at least leans his head and shoulders past the defender. Defender still hasn't moved and is still entitled to his space. The only question that remains is advantage/disadvantage. If the offensive player has knocked him down, taking away any chance at a rebound on a miss, than I say you have an offensive foul.
I had a similar situation last week and called the PC. I'm with Grail on this one.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 11, 2004, 11:41am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 149
Quote:
Originally posted by Smitty
Just because a body ends up on the floor doesn't mean a foul has occurred. Often in plays like these, the player with the ball has to make such an acrobatic move to avoid contact with the defender (or slight contact that's not foul-worthy), he comes down off balance and crashes. Along those same lines, the defender, either anticipating contact or flopping to try and suck you into a charge call, ends up on the floor for no apparent reason. Not all contact is a foul. Not all bodies on the floor got there because of a foul. Kids fall down. They usually get back up. Life goes on.
You don't understand the situation I am describing. It was not incidental contact nor was it minor falling or faking. There was a tremendous collision between the dribbler and the defender and the drfender was knocked to the floor. Something HAD to be called in this situation.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 11, 2004, 11:49am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Harwinton, CT
Posts: 324
I would have no called it but it sounds like on of those gotta be ther to see it situations.

One question... did you use advantage/disadvantage to help your decision making process. Did the dribbler gain an advantage by the defensive player going down? Did the defender gain an advantage by affecting the dribblers path or ability to proceed with his actions? Just curious...
__________________
"Some guys they just give up living, and start dying little by little, piece by piece. Some guys come home from work and wash-up, and they go Racing In The Street." - Springsteen, 1978
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 11, 2004, 11:49am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Just north of hell
Posts: 9,250
Send a message via AIM to Dan_ref
Quote:
Originally posted by Ralph Stubenthal
Quote:
Originally posted by Smitty
Just because a body ends up on the floor doesn't mean a foul has occurred. Often in plays like these, the player with the ball has to make such an acrobatic move to avoid contact with the defender (or slight contact that's not foul-worthy), he comes down off balance and crashes. Along those same lines, the defender, either anticipating contact or flopping to try and suck you into a charge call, ends up on the floor for no apparent reason. Not all contact is a foul. Not all bodies on the floor got there because of a foul. Kids fall down. They usually get back up. Life goes on.
You don't understand the situation I am describing. It was not incidental contact nor was it minor falling or faking. There was a tremendous collision between the dribbler and the defender and the drfender was knocked to the floor. Something HAD to be called in this situation.
After reading this & rereading the original I'll add if you HAVE TO call something (and I personally have no problem with you saying something HAD to be called) then go with the PC. For 2 reasons - hard to justify calling a block on B1 if he's just standing there and calling the block will only encourage the players to take it harder & harder to the basket. And before you know it you'll have bodies on the floor on every trip.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 11, 2004, 11:57am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 149
Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
Quote:
Originally posted by Ralph Stubenthal
...something had to be called.

Why?
Because the defender was severely knocked to the floor and the dribbler was displaced to the side and "stumbled" off holding the ball. Maybe you can't visualize the situation because it is hard to put the picture to words. Any good official would have HAD to call something.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 11, 2004, 12:08pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Greater Indianapolis Area
Posts: 436
Send a message via Yahoo to Indy_Ref
Quote:
Originally posted by Ralph Stubenthal
Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
Quote:
Originally posted by Ralph Stubenthal
...something had to be called.

Why?
Because the defender was severely knocked to the floor and the dribbler was displaced to the side and "stumbled" off holding the ball. Maybe you can't visualize the situation because it is hard to put the picture to words. Any good official would have HAD to call something.
After reading this last post, how about "travel"? B1 did nothing wrong...ESPECIALLY IF THEY DIDN'T MOVE. A1 stumbled off HOLDING THE BALL.

-------> TRAVEL!

[Edited by Indy_Ref on Feb 12th, 2004 at 12:22 PM]
__________________
"Be 100% correct in your primary area!"
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 11, 2004, 01:22pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 2,217
If A1 violated as a result of the contact, you can bail out with the travel. If B1 is knocked out of position by A1 who scores or crashes, you should have a foul. The head and shoulders means nothing here. B1 has a spot on the floor - A1 must avoid the contact at that point. Just putting head and shoulders past the defender does not allow the rest of A1's body to crash through B1.

Another common missed call I see is where A1 only makes partial contact (hits half the body). Many refs go with the block in this situation as well. But it really doesn't matter how much of the body A1 hits, or what part of A1 makes the contact. If B1 is set with LGP and A1 makes contact such that it creates an advantage/disadvantage, you need to call either a violation or a foul on A1.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 11, 2004, 02:27pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 14
I agree the Hawks on this point. I will say, that whichever call you make, the important thing to remember is to "sell it". You're only going to be right to half the people anyway.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 11, 2004, 02:33pm
DJ DJ is offline
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 244
Smile Leaning towards!

I agree that when I watch games that too many times officials "lean" towards not rewarding the defense for good play. If there is "judgement" (and this will cause some consternation for "rules guys) involved with this call the tendency is to call a block. When you see this called from the stands you scratch your head and wonder what angle gave that judgement!! Throw in the "flop" and this may be one of our tougher calls to get right.
__________________
"Will not leave you hanging!"
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 11, 2004, 02:37pm
Administrator
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Toledo, Ohio, U.S.A.
Posts: 8,044
Quote:
Originally posted by Ralph Stubenthal
There is a game situation that has always bothered me. It happens in a fast boys game. When a dribbler charges into the paint for a layup and crashes into the chest of a defender with legal guarding position, it is an easy player control call. But, as happened last night, the defender is set up in the paint and not moving. The dribbler charges in and goes to one side enough to get his head and shoulders around the defender before contact occurs. A body on the floor. A call has to be made quickly. I called a block. My "logic" is that the defender never aquired legal guarding position; he never got in front of the defender, facing him, with both feet on the floor. But in reality, he was intitled to the spot he was in because he WAS there first and he never moved. I hope that you can envision the situation I am trying to describe with words. Had the defender lifted a foot off the floor to move in, the call would have been a no brainer, but he never moved a muscle. Had he not ended up on the floor, I would likely have no called it. I have seen this situation many times and I have never been comfortable with it. I am not satisfied that either call-a charge nor a block is a really good call but something had to be called. Can anyone offer any insight regarding this situation.

You answered you own question. B1 had a legal position on the court relative to A1 and B1 never moved until A1 made contact with B1 with such force that B1 was knocked to the ground. Common foul against A1.

MTD, Sr.
__________________
Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials
International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials
Ohio High School Athletic Association
Toledo, Ohio
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:47pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1