an old mental dilemma

[Hawks Coach]

Mark
He never said which player went to the floor. What if it is A1, falling over B1 and either losing the ball OOB or going to the floor holding the ball. Does your call remain a foul, or do you have a violation?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Mark
He never said which player went to the floor. What if it is A1, falling over B1 and either losing the ball OOB or going to the floor holding the ball. Does your call remain a foul, or do you have a violation?

Hawks Coach:

In a later post in the thread Ralph said that B1 was knocked to the floor.

1) What if it is A1 falling over B1? Still a foul on A1.

2) What if it is A1 falling over B1 and is losing control of the ball (I know that you said losing control of the ball out-of-bounds, but that has no bearing on the play if A1's illegal contact occurs before the ball becomes dead for going out-of-bounds)? Still a foul on A1.

3) What if it is A1 falling over B1 and is losing control of the ball and the ball is about to go out-of-bounds? The ball about to go out-of-bounds if the contact occurs before the ball becomes dead for going out-of-bounds. Still a foul on A1.

4) What if it is A1 falling over B1 and goes to the floor holding the ball? Still a foul on A1.

MTD, Sr.

[footlocker]

to the original sitch...

If I felt that the defender flopped, block call.

It sounds like he was just standing there. If you are reffing the defense and watching what he is doing (nothing in this case) and major contact occurs- it has to be the other party's fault (i.e. the shooter), right call is PC.

Furthermore, i disagree with Smitty and believe that something should be called here. if the player comes down off balance and crashes he is still an airborne shooter- PC call. If he landed first and crashes then push.

All I know is you have a major crash and the defender is not to blame. This is according to you. Foul on A1.

[Smitty]

Originally posted by footlocker
Furthermore, i disagree with Smitty and believe that something should be called here. if the player comes down off balance and crashes he is still an airborne shooter- PC call. If he landed first and crashes then push.

In my original post I didn't get that the contact was such that something needed to be called. I was assuming wrongly that it was not necessarily the kind of contact that would warrant a call being made. So in the case where it is definitely something, I definitely agree with you and the others who posted.

[Hawks Coach]

Mark
You can make any of those foul calls in the travel/OOB scenarios. But you can also rule otherwise.

Rule 4
SECTION 19 FOUL
ART. 1 . . . A personal foul is a player foul which involves illegal contact with an opponent while the ball is live, which hinders an opponent from performing normal defensive and offensive movements. A personal foul also includes contact by or on an airborne shooter when the ball is dead.

A1's contact with B1 hindered A1's ability to make normal offensive movements and caused A1 to travel/lose the ball OOB. If B1 doesn't suffer from this contact, does it need to be a foul?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rainmaker
[B]

Originally posted by Grail
I had a similar situation last week and called the PC. I'm with Grail on this one.

Sorry to "dumb" up the thread, but what does PC stand for?

[footlocker]

player control = PC

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Mark
You can make any of those foul calls in the travel/OOB scenarios. But you can also rule otherwise.

Rule 4
SECTION 19 FOUL
ART. 1 . . . A personal foul is a player foul which involves illegal contact with an opponent while the ball is live, which hinders an opponent from performing normal defensive and offensive movements. A personal foul also includes contact by or on an airborne shooter when the ball is dead.

A1's contact with B1 hindered A1's ability to make normal offensive movements and caused A1 to travel/lose the ball OOB. If B1 doesn't suffer from this contact, does it need to be a foul?

Hawks Coach:

I think that you do not understanding what NFHS R4-S19-A1 is saying about hindering an opponent from performing normal defensive and offensive movements.

B1 had a legal guarding position on the court, this implies that he/she also had a legal position on the court. A1 initiated contact with B1 that hindered B1 from making normal defensive movements. The fact that A1's contact with B1 caused A1 fall or have any number of bad things to him/her does not matter. A1's contact with B1 was the illegal contact.

If B1 had moved in a manner that did not follow the guide lines set forth in the rules, then B1 would be guilty of a foul because B1's contact with A1 hindered A1 from making normal offensive movements.

MTD, Sr.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Ralph Stubenthal

Because the defender was severely knocked to the floor and the dribbler was displaced to the side and "stumbled" off holding the ball. Maybe you can't visualize the situation because it is hard to put the picture to words. Any good official would have HAD to call something.

Bull$hit. Something doesn't HAVE to be called.

The mere fact that contact occurs does not constitute a foul. When 10 players are moving rapidly in a limited area, some contact is certain to occur. Contact which occurs unintentionally in an effort by an opponent to reach a loose ball, or contact which may result when opponents are in equally favorable positions to perform normal defensive or offensive movements, should not be considered illegal, even though the contact may be severe.

Any idea where that little passage came from?

As to the call, it's either a no call, a travel, or a PC but it IS NOT a block. But just because there's a collision, it does not mean that a foul has to be called. That's my point. And I think I'm a pretty damn good official.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Feb 11th, 2004 at 08:05 PM]

[Hawks Coach]

Lets try a common no-call on contact. A1 gets a rebound. B1 is attempting to move up court as A1 commences dribble. B1 slightly bumps A1, A1 slightly loses balance, A1 maintains complete control of ball, ball advances up court with no call.

The slight stumble of A1 would not be considered a "normal offensive movement." However, the foul is not called because A has not been disadvantaged in any way.

Same with the cases I outline. You could stretch it to say that the contact prevented movement. But lets face it, B1 is anchored to the floor and going nowhere. A1 makes the contact and either loses the ball or falls to the floor with the ball. Either way, none of this impacted what B1 was doing - standing in one spot on the floor. If you think this must be a foul on A1 by rule, you read a different set of rules than I, and ref a far different game than I commonly observe.

[just another ref]

Originally posted by Ralph Stubenthal
When a dribbler ..... crashes into the chest of a defender with legal guarding position...

I think this is the key to your post. When the dribbler hits the defender squarely in the center of his chest, as you say, it is an easy call. But what is sacred about the chest in this case? Shoulder to shoulder contact, which may send the defender spinning to the floor, rather that knocking him flat on his butt, still can easily be a PC foul.

[Ralph Stubenthal]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Bull$hit. Something doesn't HAVE to be called.

The mere fact that contact occurs does not constitute a foul. When 10 players are moving rapidly in a limited area, some contact is certain to occur. Contact which occurs unintentionally in an effort by an opponent to reach a loose ball, or contact which may result when opponents are in equally favorable positions to perform normal defensive or offensive movements, should not be considered illegal, even though the contact may be severe.

Any idea where that little passage came from?

As to the call, it's either a no call, a travel, or a PC but it IS NOT a block. But just because there's a collision, it does not mean that a foul has to be called. That's my point. And I think I'm a pretty damn good official.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Feb 11th, 2004 at 08:05 PM]

I think you are a good official too just by reading your many posts over the years. Obviously, you think that I was insulting you with my reply to your reply which was certainly not the case. I was merely trying to describe in words a situation that would be much easier to understand if seen not read. If I had felt that I had made the right call, I would not have been asking for help. After reading the many posts to my question I do now believe that the PC would have been the better call although I could have called the travel after the collision when the dribbler stumbled off holding the ball. It would have the hardest sell of the 3. Regardless what call I made, something did indeed have to be called. Again, my apologies Sir and I will be much more careful in the future when I reply to posts.

[DJ]

I am standing and you run into me and knock me down when you have the ball it has to be a no call or player control foul. It is a no brainer!