Very "unusual" situation! HELP!

[DJ]

Correctable errors are correctable until the first dead ball following the first live ball and this meets the criteria. The rule is designed to prevent the wrong person from shooting a free throw and the wrong person shot the free throw. It seems that the intent of the rule is there but... Or the right wrong person shot the free throw? Bench personal are so important to good officiating. I always dread it when I hear the horn go off and the bench signals me or my partner to come over because something has happened and now we have to be an attorney instead of an official and figure out what is wrong and in most cases the rules will not allow for a fix even though obvious mistakes have been made. Bench personal can make or break a good game. Thanks for the discussion and until someone can show me a case or ruling I am not entirely convinced.

[cmathews]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

They are.

But this wasn't FTs by the wrong player.

Look, if A1 gets the 5th foul, but the table doesn't let us know for a few minutes, during which A1 gets a steal, socres a basket, commits a TO, we don't go back and "undo" all of that -- it's not correctable. The FT situation is no different.

In fact, even if the table does let the officials know, and the officials decide to let A1 shoot before s/he goes to the bench (since the ball will be dead after the last shot anyway), it's not correctable. It's a "substitution error" (yes, I made that term up), not FTs by the wrong shooter. The FED had a specific interp on this a few years ago.

Bob, do you think the fed has since changed the interp or do you think it would still stand. I see your "substitution error situation" as correctable. When the officials were notified, then allowed the player to shoot..... nope you are right, it would only be correctable if they notified the coach...if they kept it to themselves it would be wrong but not a correctable error.....wow...

[Schmidt MJ]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DJ
[B]Correctable errors are correctable until the first dead ball following the first live ball and this meets the criteria.


You're close on your definition of a correctable error but you're not quite right. Errors are correctable if recognized by an official DURING the first dead ball, not UNTIL the first dead ball. Also, it is the first dead ball AFTER THE CLOCK HAS BEEN PROPERLY STARTED,not the first dead ball FOLLOWING THE FIRST LIVE BALL. The ball actually becomes live when it is at the disposal of the free thrower but the clock does not run during the free throws for this situation.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by rainmaker

This one has my vote!

Mine too.

[thumpferee]

I'm stickin with my guns here!

'02-'03 Rules Book
See Rule 2-10 Correctable Errors
Unmerited free throw.
Before next live ball mind you.

Case book 2.10.1.A No difference IMO

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by thumpferee
I'm stickin with my guns here!

'02-'03 Rules Book
See Rule 2-10 Correctable Errors
Unmerited free throw.
Before next live ball mind you.

Case book 2.10.1.A No difference IMO

Drop those guns buddy.

2.10.1.A is not even remotely close, maybe you want 2.10.4 which refers to the wrong PLAYER shooting FTs. Before you get too excited realize that -

A PLAYER is one of 5 team members on the court.

A sub becomes a PLAYER when the sub legally enters the court.

A PLAYER becomes bench personel after his sub comes in or in the case of DQ when the coach is notified of the disqualification.

A1 was a PLAYER (as opposed to a playa ) until the coach is informed of the DQ, and a sub becomes the PLAYER that takes his place.

See 2.8.4 for the mechanics of all this.

[icallfouls]

This is a great learning opportunity and some very good points have been made.

I base my decision on NFHS Rules Book 2-11-11 Note 2. "... player who has committed 5th foul continues because the scorer has failed to notify the official ... as soon as the scorer discovers the irregularity, the game horn shall be sounded after, or as soon as, the ball is in control of the offending team or is dead. The dq'd player must be removed immediately. Any points which may have been scored while such player was illegally in the game are counted. If other aspects of the error are correctable, the procedure to be followed is included among the duties of the officials."

The last sentence is the key in this ruling. Since the free thrower was awarded an unmerited FT as a dq'd player, the sub for Player A shoots the double bonus, and the initial FT is not credited.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by icallfouls
This is a great learning opportunity and some very good points have been made.

I base my decision on NFHS Rules Book 2-11-11 Note 2. "... player who has committed 5th foul continues because the scorer has failed to notify the official ... as soon as the scorer discovers the irregularity, the game horn shall be sounded after, or as soon as, the ball is in control of the offending team or is dead. The dq'd player must be removed immediately. Any points which may have been scored while such player was illegally in the game are counted. If other aspects of the error are correctable, the procedure to be followed is included among the duties of the officials."

The last sentence is the key in this ruling. Since the free thrower was awarded an unmerited FT as a dq'd player, the sub for Player A shoots the double bonus, and the initial FT is not credited.

What about the second to the last sentence -- "Any points ... scored ... are counted."?

[rockyroad]

Originally posted by icallfouls


The last sentence is the key in this ruling. Since the free thrower was awarded an unmerited FT as a dq'd player, the sub for Player A shoots the double bonus, and the initial FT is not credited.

You're missing the point...the player is NOT a dq'ed player until we inform the coach and the player - so the free throws were not unmerited...get the sub in to shoot the second shot and go from there. There is nothing to authorize you to take that point off the board.

[icallfouls]

2-11-11- Note 2 Last sentence.

No time has run off the clock. The player should have been dq'd prior to attempting the 1st FT. Since player A was incorrectly awarded an unmerited FT, and it was discovered prior to the next live ball for the 2nd FT, it must be disallowed. That being the case, it is a correctable error and the substitute throws by player A's substitute are to be given.

I think that some of us are treating this as if time has run since the foul, which is a different ruling altogether and would not be correctable.

Great discussion!

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by icallfouls
2-11-11- Note 2 Last sentence.

No time has run off the clock. The player should have been dq'd prior to attempting the 1st FT. Since player A was incorrectly awarded an unmerited FT, and it was discovered prior to the next live ball for the 2nd FT, it must be disallowed. That being the case, it is a correctable error and the substitute throws by player A's substitute are to be given.

I think that some of us are treating this as if time has run since the foul, which is a different ruling altogether and would not be correctable.

Great discussion!

Actually some of us are treating this as if A1 is NOT dq'ed until we are told by the table A1 has 5 fouls and we then tell coach A that A1 has 5 fouls. At that point A1 is dq'ed. Prior to that point A1 has the right to play, since he's a playa.

This has nothing to do with 2-10.

[icallfouls]

the player has picked up foul #5, he doesn't have a right to play

[eyezen]

Originally posted by icallfouls
the player has picked up foul #5, he doesn't have a right to play

Yes he does, because he's not DISQUALIFIED yet (the procedure for establishing disqualification has not yet taken place, he could have 10 FOULS and still would NOT be DQ'd and STILL be a LEGAL player until said dq procedure TAKES PLACE)


[Edited by eyezen on Feb 6th, 2004 at 05:33 PM]

[nine01c]

Originally posted by nine01c
It is not an unmerited free throw or a correctable error. Player A was still a legal player when he shot the first foul shot because he had not been disqualified yet. The free throw counts and his sub will shoot the second free throw.

OOPS! I said that already.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by nine01c

OOPS! I said that already.

And if people had listened to you, this thread woulda been over already!