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Old Tue Jan 27, 2004, 01:56pm
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Hello,

This topic is always a good one - some learn how to deal with coaches quicker than others.

It's a 13-year old girls youth tournament. An "OBA tournament" for all the Ontario-folk reading. I'm the R and 60 seconds in, as T table-side, I hear the defensive ***'t coach yelling "3 in the key", "how long?", "that's an illegal screen." Quick turnover, running as new L. After a trip back down to this end, I'm L again and I now have a foul to report. I pause the game for a sec and say to the head coach, "Coach, your ***'t is saying things that might be construed as being towards an official."

He said he would take care of it. He said something to the ***'t, and we never heard from them the rest of the game.

I was actually a little surprised that it worked.
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Old Tue Jan 27, 2004, 02:32pm
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This board must have been written by an official for the abbreviated form of assistant to be blocked out. ***'t coach. Beautiful.

I see it only gets change with the apostrophe in it. Too bad
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Old Tue Jan 27, 2004, 03:03pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by JugglingReferee
"Coach, your ***'t is saying things that might be construed as being towards an official."
Is this Canadian grammar? I don't understand the meaning of the term "towards an official" as used here. Please explain for all of us poor users of this fractured language south of the border.
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Old Tue Jan 27, 2004, 04:14pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Padgett
Quote:
Originally posted by JugglingReferee
"Coach, your ***'t is saying things that might be construed as being towards an official."
Is this Canadian grammar? I don't understand the meaning of the term "towards an official" as used here. Please explain for all of us poor users of this fractured language south of the border.
Well, my thoughts coming into this game (the championship game for this tourney) were that likely these teams had officials of varying degrees of ability. I happen to know some others that were assigned to ref this tournament and both my P and I both have more experience. Also, since this was the only game I was assigned in this tourney, I have no idea what these teams are like. For all I know, this will be a /great/ game. Should that be the case, I don't want to have to deal with an assistant later than sooner.

The assistant shouting out phrases like "3 in the key", "that's an illegal screen", "how long?" (twice) 90 seconds into the game surely had no coaching benefit, especially since I was standing, at the time, almost right in front of him. My intention when talking to the HC was to place the ball in his court if he wanted to deal withit and get the assistant to be less vocal. If the assistant didn't refrain from all the classic lines, then I would have to insist that the HC deal with it.

Thoughts?

PS: it turned out to be a great game, with the other team taking control with about 4 minutes left, and winning by 12.
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Old Tue Jan 27, 2004, 05:25pm
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Hey mike, i just have a question, how does ur association handle the defensive restrictions that are in place for the novice and atom teams(the no zone rule). I find that rule to be a pain in the ***, and never bother enforcing it. I'm just wondering who should enforce it, the official, or the convenor.
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Old Tue Jan 27, 2004, 06:52pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by ref18
Hey mike, i just have a question, how does ur association handle the defensive restrictions that are in place for the novice and atom teams(the no zone rule). I find that rule to be a pain in the ***, and never bother enforcing it. I'm just wondering who should enforce it, the official, or the convenor.
The official stance is that we don't. We will not have a game interrupting whistle to deal with this. If it is obvious to us, or the other coach brings it up, at the next convenient stoppage in play, we will bring it up to the offending coach.

How about you guys? How do you deal with it?

P.S.: the other team, that won, was the Hamilton Wildcats.

[Edited by JugglingReferee on Jan 27th, 2004 at 08:00 PM]
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Old Tue Jan 27, 2004, 07:20pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by ref18
"The official, who, through the influence of his presence, causes players to avoid rule violations, has attained the perfect relationship to the game."
-T. H. Shouldice-
Haven't I seen this somewhere before?

You going to the CFOA AGM in May? What about the OABO AGM in October?
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Old Tue Jan 27, 2004, 09:25pm
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Well at our meeting last night, we were told not to deal with it. Its the convenors job to enforce, along with the fair play stuff.

The coaches of the OBA stuff have to be the worst i've seen yet. They never shut up. I give out the most T's in those tournaments.

As for the AGM's, i'm not sure about either. I'll have to talk to the HFOA president about the football one, and do you know where the OABO AGM will be in October??
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Old Tue Jan 27, 2004, 10:22pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by ref18
Well at our meeting last night, we were told not to deal with it. Its the convenors job to enforce, along with the fair play stuff.

The coaches of the OBA stuff have to be the worst i've seen yet. They never shut up. I give out the most T's in those tournaments.

As for the AGM's, i'm not sure about either. I'll have to talk to the HFOA president about the football one, and do you know where the OABO AGM will be in October??
The CFOA one is expensive - 450 I think. The OABO one is in KW! I'm on the organizing committee.
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Old Wed Jan 28, 2004, 09:03am
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Quote:
Originally posted by JugglingReferee
Quote:
Originally posted by ref18
Hey mike, i just have a question, how does ur association handle the defensive restrictions that are in place for the novice and atom teams(the no zone rule). I find that rule to be a pain in the ***, and never bother enforcing it. I'm just wondering who should enforce it, the official, or the convenor.
The official stance is that we don't. We will not have a game interrupting whistle to deal with this. If it is obvious to us, or the other coach brings it up, at the next convenient stoppage in play, we will bring it up to the offending coach.

How about you guys? How do you deal with it?

P.S.: the other team, that won, was the Hamilton Wildcats.

[Edited by JugglingReferee on Jan 27th, 2004 at 08:00 PM]
While I don't coach kids in leagues with those kind of restrictions (e.g., no zones), I have in the past, and I have numerous friends who still do. It is a SIGNIFICANT problem when you are trying to abide by the rules with your team, and another team ignores the rules with impunity. Teams that play zones when there is a specific league rule against it are CHEATING. For the officials to ignore it encourages cheating and bad sportsmanship, while at the same time it leads the non-offending coaches into fits of indignation and sometimes rage.

PLEASE, if you are officiating in a league with such rules, ENFORCE the rules! That is why you are there. This is not the same a long 3 seconds where no advantage is gained. Failure to call illegal defenses gives the offending team a clear advantage gained through their unethical intent. This really is a big deal, much bigger than virtually any other single thing that might be overlooked during a game. It is an intentional violation by the coach and should not be tolerated. Issue a warning, then a "T". The coach is cheating!

How can kids learn respect for the rules, or for the officials for that matter, when something so key to the way they are being taught is ignored?

Sorry for the rant, but this is one of my major hot buttons!
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Old Wed Jan 28, 2004, 07:42pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by CYO Butch
While I don't coach kids in leagues with those kind of restrictions (e.g., no zones), I have in the past, and I have numerous friends who still do. It is a SIGNIFICANT problem when you are trying to abide by the rules with your team, and another team ignores the rules with impunity. Teams that play zones when there is a specific league rule against it are CHEATING. For the officials to ignore it encourages cheating and bad sportsmanship, while at the same time it leads the non-offending coaches into fits of indignation and sometimes rage.
I agree that it is a significant problem. The direction of not enforcing the issue is not mine to make. At this point, my duty is to be consistent within our association. All the coach has to do is mention it to me and then I mention it to the other coach. On the 2nd time, I mention it to the game administrator. There is no violation or T called. If a coach gets into a rage over this, then s/he has other problems to deal with first.

Quote:
Originally posted by CYO Butch
PLEASE, if you are officiating in a league with such rules, ENFORCE the rules! That is why you are there. This is not the same a long 3 seconds where no advantage is gained. Failure to call illegal defenses gives the offending team a clear advantage gained through their unethical intent. This really is a big deal, much bigger than virtually any other single thing that might be overlooked during a game. It is an intentional violation by the coach and should not be tolerated. Issue a warning, then a "T". The coach is cheating!

How can kids learn respect for the rules, or for the officials for that matter, when something so key to the way they are being taught is ignored?

Sorry for the rant, but this is one of my major hot buttons!
We do enforce the rules: the first time we talk to the coach during a dead ball. That is the rule.

Illegal defense! NICE! Can I do the mechanic, too? And shot a 1-shot T? I'd love to do that!
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Old Wed Jan 28, 2004, 08:07pm
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The main reason that we don't enforce the rule is that there is no penalty for violating it. If they want it enforced, they talk to game management or the site convenor, and they'll deal with it. The only league specific rule that we call is the drop back rule when a team leads by 20+ points.
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Old Thu Jan 29, 2004, 08:31am
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Quote:
Originally posted by ref18
The main reason that we don't enforce the rule is that there is no penalty for violating it. If they want it enforced, they talk to game management or the site convenor, and they'll deal with it. The only league specific rule that we call is the drop back rule when a team leads by 20+ points.
What do you do if they fail to drop back? Do you hold up play until they comply? If they still refuse, what then? Do you just say, "Oh well, let game management deal with it" and continue play?
I can't believe that an offical doesn't have recourse if a coach (or player for that matter) refuses to abide by a directive from an offical to comply with a league rule. Sure, game management (if it even exists as anything other than teenagers at this level) would have to record and report the results, and the league would have to take more long term action toward the coach, but you can't convince me that the officials can't do anything because there is no explicit penalty.

By the way, when I used to coach in a league with those kinds of rules, the officials did enforce them, and those violations weren't a problem after the first couple of games. We howlers can learn when hit over the head enough times.
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Old Thu Jan 29, 2004, 02:33pm
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In Brooklyn-Queens CYO, the rule is no press after a specific lead has been reached (10 points up to 8th grade, 15 for 8th and 9th, 20 for higher level teams). This means that the defense must stay behind the 3-point line after the team that is behind has control of the ball. Ref is supposed to give one warning, then Bench Technical Foul for delay of game. In actuality, ref usually gives several verbal warnings to players before issuing warning to coach. This usually works well since few coaches want blowouts on youth level, and it gives both coaches a chance to sub in the less capable players.

Quote:
Originally posted by CYO Butch
Quote:
Originally posted by ref18
The main reason that we don't enforce the rule is that there is no penalty for violating it. If they want it enforced, they talk to game management or the site convenor, and they'll deal with it. The only league specific rule that we call is the drop back rule when a team leads by 20+ points.
What do you do if they fail to drop back? Do you hold up play until they comply? If they still refuse, what then? Do you just say, "Oh well, let game management deal with it" and continue play?
I can't believe that an offical doesn't have recourse if a coach (or player for that matter) refuses to abide by a directive from an offical to comply with a league rule. Sure, game management (if it even exists as anything other than teenagers at this level) would have to record and report the results, and the league would have to take more long term action toward the coach, but you can't convince me that the officials can't do anything because there is no explicit penalty.

By the way, when I used to coach in a league with those kinds of rules, the officials did enforce them, and those violations weren't a problem after the first couple of games. We howlers can learn when hit over the head enough times.
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Old Thu Jan 29, 2004, 05:48pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by CYO Butch
Quote:
Originally posted by ref18
The main reason that we don't enforce the rule is that there is no penalty for violating it. If they want it enforced, they talk to game management or the site convenor, and they'll deal with it. The only league specific rule that we call is the drop back rule when a team leads by 20+ points.
What do you do if they fail to drop back? Do you hold up play until they comply? If they still refuse, what then? Do you just say, "Oh well, let game management deal with it" and continue play?
I can't believe that an offical doesn't have recourse if a coach (or player for that matter) refuses to abide by a directive from an offical to comply with a league rule. Sure, game management (if it even exists as anything other than teenagers at this level) would have to record and report the results, and the league would have to take more long term action toward the coach, but you can't convince me that the officials can't do anything because there is no explicit penalty.

By the way, when I used to coach in a league with those kinds of rules, the officials did enforce them, and those violations weren't a problem after the first couple of games. We howlers can learn when hit over the head enough times.
I don't let it go to game management because i don't feel like calling it, I don't enforce it because its what I am told to do. From what i've heard, my association isn't the only one in the province to take this kind of action. Several others have well. I just follow orders. Doing it this way makes everyone's job easier.

[Edited by ref18 on Jan 29th, 2004 at 06:58 PM]
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