Subs to Start 4th Quarter

[bob jenkins]

As the teams walk out to start the 4th quarter, the scorer sounds (well, has the timer sound) the horn and beckons the R. The R approaches and the scorer indicates that the "wrong" players are in the game -- they didn't report between quarters.

It turns out that both the assistant coach and the head coach approaced the scorer after the third quarter and indicated that the starters would be returning to the game to start the 4th quarter. The scorer did not tell either coach that the players needed to report.

Of course, the scorer is correct by rule -- a team representative can indicate substitutions only before the second half.

So, if you are the R, do you allow the subs?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by bob jenkins
As the teams walk out to start the 4th quarter, the scorer sounds (well, has the timer sound) the horn and beckons the R. The R approaches and the scorer indicates that the "wrong" players are in the game -- they didn't report between quarters.

It turns out that both the assistant coach and the head coach approaced the scorer after the third quarter and indicated that the starters would be returning to the game to start the 4th quarter. The scorer did not tell either coach that the players needed to report.

Of course, the scorer is correct by rule -- a team representative can indicate substitutions only before the second half.

So, if you are the R, do you allow the subs?

Yes, the coaches did nothing to subvert the intent and spirit of the rules.

MTD, Sr.

[A Pennsylvania Coach]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Yes, the coaches did nothing to subvert the intent and spirit of the rules.

MTD, Sr.

The opposing coach, who spent the 60 seconds during the intermission discussing with his team how he wanted to attack the reserves currently in the game, and making sure the starters weren't going back in by having an assistant monitor who goes to the table during the break, might take issue with this.

Why do you think these rules are written the way they are unless there was a good reason for them? Who are you to decide which rules you are enforcing and which rules you are not on any given night? (Philosophically, not a personal attack.)

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by A Pennsylvania Coach
[/B]

Yes, the coaches did nothing to subvert the intent and spirit of the rules.

[/B][/QUOTE]

The opposing coach, who spent the 60 seconds during the intermission discussing with his team how he wanted to attack the reserves currently in the game, and making sure the starters weren't going back in by having an assistant monitor who goes to the table during the break, might take issue with this.

Why do you think these rules are written the way they are unless there was a good reason for them? Who are you to decide which rules you are enforcing and which rules you are not on any given night? (Philosophically, not a personal attack.)
[/B][/QUOTE]Good reply from a coach's viewpoint. Something to think about!

[BktBallRef]

PA coach, are you telling us that you have someone watching the table so you'll know what opposing players are going to be in the game to start the 4th quarter?

[Rich]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
PA coach, are you telling us that you have someone watching the table so you'll know what opposing players are going to be in the game to start the 4th quarter?

Regardless of his personal answer, it was a good response and one this official wouldn't have thought of. Thanks.

I'm pretty anal about substitutes not coming in if they report after the first horn, so I suppose that this situation is even worse than that.

Rich

[gsf23]

If starters are out of the game, I have my assistant watch to see if they are going to check in during any quarter break. We may have to run a different defense or switch our match-ups if a player is going to be comming back into the game. Also, who they have in the game may affect who I have in the game. If we have a certain player, guarding a certain player, I need to know if he's comming back in so I can get my guy in.

[Edited by gsf23 on Jan 26th, 2004 at 12:46 PM]

[A Pennsylvania Coach]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
PA coach, are you telling us that you have someone watching the table so you'll know what opposing players are going to be in the game to start the 4th quarter?

This season, my scorer has instructions to call out opposing subs' numbers during intermissions and timeouts; as gsf mentioned, it could affect our defense or matchups, or possibly how we attack offensively.

I think I've told this story on here before, but here goes...

Early in 2001-2002 season, four-team tournament final game, versus hosts. Late in first quarter, opponents put five subs in for five starters. The starters only had two capable ball-handlers, so guessing that the subs didn't, I put our press on.

In the quarter break, I told them if the reserves were still in, we were still in the press. If not, then no press. I was keeping one eye on the table until the first horn to be sure. So we come out to start the second quarter and the five starters walk out. Right away bells start going off in my head about how this could turn out really well for us. I wasn't clear on the details of the rule at the time, so I waited until the ball was inbounded to call out to the official that all five players in the game were illegal. Eventually he hears me, whistles the play dead, comes to me to clarify what I'm saying, then checks with the table to see if the anybody reported. He comes back to me telling me we have five technical fouls, and that we'd shoot five FTs.

In the back of my mind, I'm thinking it should be ten. I know there aren't any one-shot techs in Fed, but at this point I feel like a guy who just found out he won the lottery for $50 million instead of $100 million. We shoot the five, making three.

Unhappy ending is that we give away a big second-half lead to a press, with all but one of my ball-handlers either out with injury or fouls, and lose. (Karma?)

I found out later that if five techs WERE called, we should've shot ten FTs (I was pretty sure about that); but that no techs should've been called because once the ball became live, the illegal subs were now legal.

Before anyone starts throwing rocks, I don't feel bad or unsportsmanlike when taking advantage of my rule knowledge. The book is there for all coaches to read. If they don't have starters in at the ten-minute mark, I point it out to the official and lobby for the T. The rules are there for a reason.

[Edited by A Pennsylvania Coach on Jan 26th, 2004 at 03:02 PM]

[wizard]

PA Coach,
What grade level was this game?

[RecRef]

Originally posted by A Pennsylvania Coach

Before anyone starts throwing rocks, I don't feel bad or unsportsmanlike when taking advantage of my rule knowledge. The book is there for all coaches to read. If they don't have starters in at the ten-minute mark, I point it out to the official and lobby for the T. The rules are there for a reason.

[Edited by A Pennsylvania Coach on Jan 26th, 2004 at 03:02 PM]

I’ll be the first to admit that I am a little weak on Rule 3. Never gave much thought as to why most of it is there but you have been a real eye opener as to the advantage that a team can gain by circumventing the substitution rules.

Now will you please explain to us why we need to be fashion police when it comes to the uniform?

[Rich]

Originally posted by A Pennsylvania Coach

This season, my scorer has instructions to call out opposing subs' numbers during intermissions and timeouts; as gsf mentioned, it could affect our defense or matchups, or possibly how we attack offensively.

I think I've told this story on here before, but here goes...

Early in 2001-2002 season, four-team tournament final game, versus hosts. Late in first quarter, opponents put five subs in for five starters. The starters only had two capable ball-handlers, so guessing that the subs didn't, I put our press on.

In the quarter break, I told them if the reserves were still in, we were still in the press. If not, then no press. I was keeping one eye on the table until the first horn to be sure. So we come out to start the second quarter and the five starters walk out. Right away bells start going off in my head about how this could turn out really well for us. I wasn't clear on the details of the rule at the time, so I waited until the ball was inbounded to call out to the official that all five players in the game were illegal. Eventually he hears me, whistles the play dead, comes to me to clarify what I'm saying, then checks with the table to see if the anybody reported. He comes back to me telling me we have five technical fouls, and that we'd shoot five FTs.

In the back of my mind, I'm thinking it should be ten. I know there aren't any one-shot techs in Fed, but at this point I feel like a guy who just found out he won the lottery for $50 million instead of $100 million. We shoot the five, making three.

Unhappy ending is that we give away a big second-half lead to a press, with all but one of my ball-handlers either out with injury or fouls, and lose. (Karma?)

I found out later that if five techs WERE called, we should've shot ten FTs (I was pretty sure about that); but that no techs should've been called because once the ball became live, the illegal subs were now legal.

Before anyone starts throwing rocks, I don't feel bad or unsportsmanlike when taking advantage of my rule knowledge. The book is there for all coaches to read. If they don't have starters in at the ten-minute mark, I point it out to the official and lobby for the T. The rules are there for a reason.

[Edited by A Pennsylvania Coach on Jan 26th, 2004 at 03:02 PM]

You wouldn't get the chance. I'm always in the book well before the clock hits ten minutes and once I have the book I make sure things are right.

I thought most officials prevented this kind of thing from happening, too.

Originally from PA, BTW. Can you narrow down your location in the Keystone State for me?

Rich

[A Pennsylvania Coach]

My story above happened in a varsity girls' game.

Where in PA? Lancaster County. In the past three years, we have started two varsity games and two JV games with a T on the opponents for the book. It should be three JV but the last official refused to call it.

[Rich]

I always get to the table before the clock hits 11 minutes and make sure all the required information is available to the scorer. If I couldn't track down a coach, though, I wouldn't hesitate to make the call.

Worked with some partners last week who go to the table (R only) at about 13 minutes and have the captains meeting afterwards. I like it, in theory, but I like to mark the floor captains in the book, so I'd have to go back a second time.

[PublicBJ]

Originally posted by bob jenkins
As the teams walk out to start the 4th quarter, the scorer sounds (well, has the timer sound) the horn and beckons the R. The R approaches and the scorer indicates that the "wrong" players are in the game -- they didn't report between quarters.

It turns out that both the assistant coach and the head coach approaced the scorer after the third quarter and indicated that the starters would be returning to the game to start the 4th quarter. The scorer did not tell either coach that the players needed to report.

Of course, the scorer is correct by rule -- a team representative can indicate substitutions only before the second half.

So, if you are the R, do you allow the subs?

I'm with Mark on this one. The nit that makes me not call this is that the scorer did not mention to the coaches that they needed to have the players report. This sounds like a cheeseball move by the scorer.

Before you go off on that, I think we need "preventative scoring" as well as "preventative officiating". The coaches made the effort in the spirit of the game, and got no help from the table.

I'd let it go, and ask the scorer to help us out in the future. If the opposing coach complains (and he has a right to), I'd explain my logic, and state that I would have done the same for him/her.

[davidw]

Originally posted by PublicBJ
[/B]

I'm with Mark on this one. The nit that makes me not call this is that the scorer did not mention to the coaches that they needed to have the players report. This sounds like a cheeseball move by the scorer.[/B][/QUOTE]


Right on Brian. Scorer could have very easily done this and IMO, should have.

Originally posted by PublicBJ
[/B]

Before you go off on that, I think we need "preventative scoring" as well as "preventative officiating". The coaches made the effort in the spirit of the game, and got no help from the table.[/B][/QUOTE]


Again, Brian, very good. The table personnel are part of my (officials) team--as in nuetral. There move as explained in the orig. post, appeared to be less than nuetral.

Originally posted by PublicBJ
[/B]

I'd let it go, and ask the scorer to help us out in the future. If the opposing coach complains (and he has a right to), I'd explain my logic, and state that I would have done the same for him/her.

[/B][/QUOTE]


Finally, Brian--a very good summary. Nice job. I agree.

[Edited by davidw on Jan 27th, 2004 at 03:02 PM]