What would you have done?

[Mark Padgett]

Middle school classic level boys tournament this past weekend. On Sunday, I was sitting behind scorer during 7th grade championship game waiting to do the 8th grade game. Both officials are about 5 year veterans. With about 20 seconds to go, game is tied. A1 to inbound in frontcourt on side near division line. A1's pass hits A2 on hand in frontcourt, caroms into backcourt where A2 recovers. Trail calls over and back violation.

Neither coach says anything and lead is also quiet. B1 inbounds and B2 hits jumper to win game.

My question is: should I have stepped in and said anything when it happened? What would you have done?

[bob jenkins]

Talk to the officials after the game.

Trail: Tell him the rule
Lead: Tell him to talk to the trail, if he saw something different.

Don't interrupt their game.

[JRutledge]

I have to agree with Bob on this one. You might make them mad if you just go in and tell them what they did wrong. Maybe they saw something you did not. Just talk to them and ask them what happen, but do not impose your opinion on their judgement. That would be bad!!!

[walter]

My approach when I see something like this happen is to approach the officials after the game away from the coaches and/or players and/or fans if possible. Like Rut, I ask them what they saw and why they called what they did, where were the looking, etc. If they describe it as I saw it to be, I then try and begin a dialogue about what the proper call should have been and why. If they describe something I didn't see, then I tell good call, etc. We're all in this together.

[Brian Watson]

My guess is if you tried to interupt the game two things would have happened.

1) the coaches then would know they screwed up.
2) they might not be very receptive to your help.

I would make a point to bring up the subject in the locker room (maybe let them hear your "pregame", but short of that, not much you can do.

[Mark Padgett]

As you probably inferred from my post, I did nothing at the time. After the game, probably I would have said something to them, however, the trail came up to me first. He said, "We blew it, didn't we?" I said that if he was referring to that call, the answer was yes.

He then asked me if he should do something about it, like apologizing to the losing coach. I told him the best thing he could do was learn from the experience, make sure his partner knew what happened, and study the rules a little bit better.

Briefly, I then reviewed the four elements necessary for an over and back call and also what constituted the gaining of team control when none exists. That took about 60 seconds. He thanked me and promised to attend every clinic he could.

I thought he was truly sorry he blew the call, and I told him not to dwell on it and just do better next game.

Heck - even I made a mistake once (some coaches would say it was when I decided to become an official)

[Richard Ogg]

I had a very similar thing happen last Friday.

Due to schedule changes (and no notification) I'm at the gym watching a Girls Frosh/Varsity before my Boys Frosh game. I too am right behind the scorer's table. Between two free throws they brought in a substitute. Turns out the girl going out was not in the book! After the free throw the other coach challenged the player who just left. The officials assessed a T!

After the game (or during half time -- don't remember) I asked them about the sub. (I thought it was on the girl going IN, but learned it was on the girl going OUT!) I next asked them when it could be penalized. Once they began to realized that they blew it, I explained that once the ball was given to the shooter for the second free throw, then it was too late to penalize for the girl going IN. It was way too late for the one going out.

It helps watching others' games -- we all learn.

[Brian Watson]

If that is the worst mistake he makes all year, he wil be fine.

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by Mark Padgett

Heck - even I made a mistake once (some coaches would say it was when I decided to become an official)

I'm sure that most coaches think you call a good game for at least half of the time you're on the floor

[Sven]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Richard Ogg
[B]I had a very similar thing happen last Friday.

"... (I thought it was on the girl going IN, but learned it was on the girl going OUT!) I next asked them when it could be penalized. Once they began to realized that they blew it, I explained that once the ball was given to the shooter for the second free throw, then it was too late to penalize for the girl going IN. It was way too late for the one going out..."

Richard,

Point of clarification:

I understand that the situation didn't turn out this way, but it seems to me that if the girl going in had not been in the book, a technical foul would have been assessed (regardless of the time frame) when it was brought to the attention of the officials -- provided she was still in the game, because it would have required adding her name to the book.



Am I missing something?

Sven

[johnfox]

let'em take the heat. we've all been there done that. granted maybe wrong time might have won game. hope both officials talked about it after game and learned from it.

[Todd VandenAkker]

Originally posted by Mark Padgett
Both officials are about 5 year veterans.

Isn't that a contradiction in terms? How long does it take before an official can/should be called a "veteran?"

[Bart Tyson]

Sven, I think you are correct. However i would say You have to add her name to the book because she played and all players who play have to be recorded in the book. There are other HS rules about players and playing time, ie number of quarters played. So, the team does receive a T.

[Richard Ogg]

Originally posted by Sven
... but it seems to me that if the girl going in had not been in the book, a technical foul would have been assessed (regardless of the time frame) when it was brought to the attention of the officials ....

Am I missing something?

Sven

Yeah. I don't have my book with me to quote the address, but the note on this rule states that the penalty must be assessed before the ball becomes live after the player enters the game. The book change should occur when the player enters the game. (If the scorer is lazy or slow, we can't help that. They should catch the mistake when the player first reports to substitute in, not when beckoned.)

For a free throw, the ball becomes live when at the disposal of the shooter. So between the first and second shots, the subs come in. A T can be assessed right then. Once that ball goes to the shooter, it is too late. Period.

The same rule note applies if the officials are notified after the game starts that the starters don't agree with who the coach indicated would start. Its too late for any penalty once that ball is tossed (becomes live).

Same note again on illegal substitution. Once the ball becomes live, or the bench person becomes a player, it is too late for any penalty.

[Sven]

"Yeah. I don't have my book with me to quote the address, but the note on this rule states that the penalty must be assessed before the ball becomes live after the player enters the game. The book change should occur when the player enters the game. (If the scorer is lazy or slow, we can't help that. They should catch the mistake when the player first reports to substitute in, not when beckoned.)

For a free throw, the ball becomes live when at the disposal of the shooter. So between the first and second shots, the subs come in. A T can be assessed right then. Once that ball goes to the shooter, it is too late. Period.

The same rule note applies if the officials are notified after the game starts that the starters don't agree with who the coach indicated would start. Its too late for any penalty once that ball is tossed (becomes live).

Same note again on illegal substitution. Once the ball becomes live, or the bench person becomes a player, it is too late for any penalty."

Rich,

I think we're talking about two different situations here. You're absolutely correct in regard to the starters not agreeing with those listed in the book. (Too late to penalize once the ball is live.)

However, in the case of a player participating who is not listed in the book, we penalize when discovered.

Had to look it up to be sure. Case Book 3.2.2C Play

Sven