Coach: "The Fouls are 7-2!"

[DJ]

The first time I hear this I will just ignore it and generally speaking things will probably even up in the course of a game. However, if they don't even up and I hear it again or again we now have a problem that needs to be taken care of and you can find your officiating style ie. comedian, confrontational or diplomat and figure out how you will handle it. This is a skill that depends on your personality and experience and if you are talented you will handle it in a way that works for all parties involved. If you can handle confrontation in a variety of ways and situations you have a skill or talent that is invaluable as an official! There is never a single cure all for all situations. Learn to be resilient and think on the run and you schedule will reflect you talents.

[DJ]

One of these days I will learn to proof read my post. Thanks for your patience.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Dan
Do you have to tell the coach that you think he called you a cheater in order to shut him up? Mind you I never suggested you shouldn't shut him up - I clearly have argued you should. We are only discussing what words you use and don't use, and what you bring into the conversation. I know refs can shut coaches up without ever mentioning themselves. Mission accomplished.

Well, as I said I don't know the context since I haven't been following this thread. But I will admit I have asked this question ("Coach, you're not saying I'm cheating, are you?") in a semi-joking manner. I no longer do this because one fine day the answer will be "Damn right I think you're cheating!" or even worse "Nah, I just think you're doing a sh!tty job". And as you say this does not accomplish my mission and worse I have carried my opponent's ammunition for him.

[bsktball_ref]

Wow, what a great discussion.

HawksCoach- How very valuable to get some insight from the other side of the stripes! I happen to agree with you in this case. I will not be a party to escalating a situation with a coach. The ability to diffuse the situation is a better measure of my skills as an official.

In regards to foul count: It has now been brought to my attention. I don't think I ever make a response to that "7-2" comment. I figure I am in one of two situations. First, I'll consider the ball game and ask my self, "Does it seem like an evenly played game with respect to fouls?" If my answer is positive, I will make sure that I am seeing the game equally on both sides of the court and alter the way I see the game to make sure I am calling a fair contest. If I determine that in fact one team is fouling more, I will continue to call the game the way I have been however unfortunate it may be for the upset coach.

Jrut- Maybe I am crazy. I do care what the coaches and others think of me. I want all the coaches to believe that I am doing a fair and objective job officiating the ball game. I don't obsess over this or allow this ‘care’ to affect how I make calls.
I have been a coach and know how easy it is to make the ref a scapegoat. I will allow some leeway. I never let him show me up and there is an art to putting the coach in his place while allowing him to maintain his integrity with his players and fans. I try to make my point without any resentment.

LetÂ’s all save face. I get to be the one to make the calls. Just because I get to have the last word doesnÂ’t mean I should lead the discussion down the path to make the final word so harsh.

[Bart Tyson]

Coach: fouls are 7-2, or Thats a foul, or over the back, or he push off, or hand check, or get um off, or she's not that bad of a shooter, or traveling, or that was out on blue. I could go on and on. I guess you can make a case that all these comments are calling you a cheater. WOW I've been cheating a long time and didn't even know it. I have some catching up to do. I'm going to practice my "T" signal before Saturday's game.

[JRutledge]

Hawk Coach,

I think you do not understand the peeking order here. Officials have the authority over the game, whether you like it or not. We decide what we want to tolerate and not tolerate. Every single official is different and every one might not agree on this or many other situation. I look at this comment much different than a coach yelling about something else. But even if a coach is crying about "over the back" all night, at some point I will and my partners will tell that coach in so many words to "shut up." Because I am not going to set there all night and listen to a whinning coach, complain how nothing is going his way and how he cannot get a call. At some point, let it go.

I officiate 3 sports and in all of them there are times when officials have to stay something to a coach. For one, most of you are a bunch of babies and cannot function without someone giving you an explaination, even when you do not deserve one. But to say that my commenting to a coach who is talking to me, as being confrontational, not sure what world that is from. Do not make it sound like a coach saying "the fouls are 7-2" are not directed at a specific official. And I have never said that the comments that were made back had to be a leacture. But I can say a couple of words and he knows where I stand and if he wants to continue to go down that road, then he was warned or told. Would you rather me just T the coach without saying anything? Maybe that is what we should do. We should just T any coach that makes any comment that questions our judgment. The rules support that. I think that makes better since. Then you will not feel we did you wrong or gave you an opportunity to make it right.

If officials commenting to coaches about what they are saying to them is confrontational, then every well respected official I know in several sports are confrontational. Certainly every NFL officials is confrontational, just watch NFL films. They are always commenting on what coaches are screaming and yelling about. Major League Umpires are confrontational, hell, they have a Manager storming out of the box yelling and screaming at them, telling them what position they were in. And any basketball official is confrontation, considering coaches are talking right in their ear about the foul total. Maybe you have a lot of 2 person crews, but we do 3 around these parts. When a coach makes most of their comments, were are within 10-15 feet of where the coach is standing. And we use the 14 foot coaching box to make it easier for them to comment. But I guess we cannot comment, you think it is confrontational?

Peace

[DJ]

After reading the last post, confrontational? Do you sound confrontational? Don't resemble that remarck? Not me!!

[DJ]

Now those guys are confrontational! I love it when they get up on there toes and stick out their chests and start spitting in each others face as they argue a point and then give the ejection siganl!! So much for diplomacy!!

[bsktball_ref]

Jrut-

Is every game you call perfect? Has a coach ever been correct about a game situation? Have you ever been in a situation where you watched you partner butcher a call and the coach was on him about it, you knew the coach was right?

The point is- we are imperfect and we should all be trying to get better and handle every situation better. Isn't that why we use the forum? To learn from others experiences.

You sound like a very experienced official (3 sports). You spend time on the forum reading and sharing. Your posts read like you have a very hard line on this. Is it possible that a coach is noticing what could be an inequality and it is coming out as frustration? And, if that is the case- do we really want to continue to referee the game with inequality? I believe that you are passionate enough about your profession to fix a mistake if you happen to make one.

Even when comments come out as frustration- we have duty for the game to keep coaches in check. You are right! Is there a way to do this with out bringing up cheating? Can't we give the coaches the benifit of the doubt that they don't think we are cheating? For the good of the game?

Before you respond- please consider what I am suggesting. Not letting a coach get away with inappropriate criticism; that cannot happen. Rather, listening-considering-gracefully diffusing-moving on.

[theboys]

Well, I'm weighing in a little late on this post, but here's my two cents worth:

I agree with Hawks Coach. As a coach/player/fan, I have complained long and loud about various howler topics, but I have never suspected I was being cheated by a referee. I've always just chalked it up, most of the time erroneously, to a referee doing a "bad job". If a referee asked me if I thought he was cheating, I think I would be taken aback. My complaining is on a, ahem, professional level. Calling someone a cheater is a personal thing. As one of the other posters said, my complaints of a foul discrepancy fit in the same category as "he was fouled!", "he's been carrying the ball all night!", etc. Its probably more of an attempt to try to get the referee to see "my" side, than anything else. Don't take the vast majority of criticisms personally. They're not meant to be.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by bsktball_ref
Not letting a coach get away with inappropriate criticism; that cannot happen. Rather, listening-considering-gracefully diffusing-moving on.

The bottom line on this one is that the coaches who make comments like this are simply taking their chances. Anybody who thinks that they're making these comments for any other reason than to "work" you must believe in the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy also.

They might get a "Mr. Nice Guy" like you. They might also get a hard a$$, like I have a tendency to be sometime. If they're gonna make the comment, then they've got no complaints if somebody does happen to T them up. And I'm not gonna second-guess the guy who T'd him up either. Just like I'm not gonna second-guess the guy who used diplomacy. Each official sets their own limit, and then they do whatever works best for them. A smart coach will know his officials before he makes comments like this, anyway.

[Bart Tyson]

[/B][/QUOTE] A smart coach ... [/B][/QUOTE]

Hmmmmm

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by bsktball_ref
Jrut-

Is every game you call perfect? Has a coach ever been correct about a game situation? Have you ever been in a situation where you watched you partner butcher a call and the coach was on him about it, you knew the coach was right?

What does any of that have to do with the conversation we are having?

Originally posted by bsktball_ref

The point is- we are imperfect and we should all be trying to get better and handle every situation better. Isn't that why we use the forum? To learn from others experiences.

We are hear to learn from other's experience, we are not here (at least I am not) to agree with everything thing that is said, especially one from a coach. Because I do not know any official that agrees with each other on everything. And because you have a point of view, does not make it right for me, nor is that the right way to handle a situation.

Originally posted by bsktball_ref
You sound like a very experienced official (3 sports). You spend time on the forum reading and sharing. Your posts read like you have a very hard line on this. Is it possible that a coach is noticing what could be an inequality and it is coming out as frustration?

I did not realize frustration gave you a pass to say what ever you like. But I will remember that next time for sure.

Originally posted by bsktball_ref
And, if that is the case- do we really want to continue to referee the game with inequality? I believe that you are passionate enough about your profession to fix a mistake if you happen to make one.

The foul total is not my mistake. Chances are, I did not call all the fouls. Chances are, I might not even called all the fouls to make the inequality in the foul totals. I can speak for myself, usually when the foul total is different, it is because one team is playing one way, the other team is playing another. Or at the very least, one team is being out coached, while the other team is trying to find excuses.

Originally posted by bsktball_ref
Even when comments come out as frustration- we have duty for the game to keep coaches in check. You are right! Is there a way to do this with out bringing up cheating? Can't we give the coaches the benifit of the doubt that they don't think we are cheating? For the good of the game?

Who said anything about using the words "cheating?" I have said that the words I use is "integrity." If you are trying to suggest I have none, then I have the right to comment. Just like I have the right to say something to a coach that "knows" I saw something I was not even looking at a particular play, "HE" thinks I was. I guess when I am standing in front of him and I am asked about that, I have no right to comment then either? If a coach tells me, "you saw that play," when I am watching something completely different, I might say to him, "my partner had a great look at that play." Now does that make me confrontational to make that comment? According to the comments that have been said to me, it has to be confrontational. Because anytime we say something, we are out of line. At least according to Hawk Coach.

Originally posted by bsktball_ref
Before you respond- please consider what I am suggesting. Not letting a coach get away with inappropriate criticism; that cannot happen. Rather, listening-considering-gracefully diffusing-moving on.

What is there to consider? That I totally disagree with your point of view on this? Because that is all there is to consider. The last time I gave a T on a coach, it was for a comment that questioned my competency and the words he used were "READ A RULEBOOK, READ A RULEBOOK, READ A RULEBOOK!!!" Now that was last January a year ago. It was the first T I have given for conduct on a coach or player in about 2 years from that point. So I guess I should have turned the other cheek and walked away when those comments were made because he was frustrated and did not get his way. By the way, I was not only right(based on the rule he was complaining about), but most officials I talked to off this board agreed that he needed to be dealt with. Only people on this board said, "you did the wrong thing." So I guess that shows who I listen to. All of us are different. If you want to handle the situation differently, that is your prerogative. But it works for me and that is all that is important in my world. If it works for you to let a coach call you what is essentially a "cheater" without saying anything, more power to you.

Peace

[DJ]

There is nothing the matter with a coach expressing his views on any issue concerning my officiating. The only time I get tired of a coaches view is if it gets to be a play by play of my officiating. When it starts to be too much like a play by play the coach is starting to lose his credibility and I will defend my turf and handle it in a way that I see fit depending on the circumstances. I always enjoy working with a coach as long as he is working with me. Yes I have used the words "Coach, We don't need a play by play of our officiating" in reponse to a coach and it has worked for some of these occasions.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally posted by JRutledge
So I guess I should have turned the other cheek and walked away

To which cheek do you refer?