Directing Player to Leave Game

[williebfree]

Originally posted by JRutledge

I will say this. This type of game management is attributed to many officials that have much more clout than I do. This is commom for veteran officials to use this from time to time in basketball and in other sports like football. It works because the coach realizes that if we pull the trigger or if we had pulled the trigger, it would not have been a good thing for his team. Of course it is up to the situation and the official to do something in this case. But if the coach wants to not adhere to the warning, then I will just not worry about all the leeway I was giving and start doing things strictly according the the rules. When I did not call the toe on the box, now I will make an issue out of it. I will not just do it for his team, I will do it for both. Because if you did not want to adhere to the warning, now I will just use every rule to get the situation under control. And the next players that even look like they want to fight will be dealt with accordingly. No warning, no explaination, no rope. Just take care of business and move on. And I have never had a situation where captains or coaches did not get a full understanding of any warning and did not realize the seriousness of the situation after action was taken. You can call it a power struggle or whatever you like. The officials will control the game regardless of what the coaches or the players want. It is up to them if they are going to be apart of the solution or part of the problem.

Peace

JRutledge...

I sincerely hope that none of us have to deal with a coach who is this stubborn, but I want to be prepared. I may be a bit anal here, but I want to clarify this scenerio for myself and others.

Again, you have provided some reasonable information about game management, but you have not referenced any rules that support the procedure you initially indicated that you would use in your original response.

I have noticed, in this latest response, that you have backed off from assessing the flagrant AFTER the coach refused to sub for his player, but you indicate that you will now strictly enforce rules for the remainder of the game and be on high alert for potential fights.

Believe it or not, I agree that approaching the coaches and "requesting" them to remove the involved players is good game management. What I disagree with is the decision to issue a flagrant Tech AFTER the coach doesn't heed the warning.

Just curious, can you cite a rule I can use to justify demanding the coach remove his player from the game in this situation (without it being a Flagrant foul or a 2nd T)?

[williebfree]

Originally posted by TXMATTHEW05
I was doing a couple scrimmages at my school on Saturday (K-12 School), and one of them was a 6-8 year old division. I had a jump ball RIGHT in front of me, blow the whistle, do the routine. One of the players from my school decided to throw in an extra elbow after the whistle blew. Considering that this was an 8 year old and that this game wasn't a league game (it was PURE fun), I brought her to the coach (I know her very well) and said "Dwayna, give me a sub." She responded immediately and without question.

Would it REALLY have improved things if I would have T'd her, or ejected her with a flagrant technical? I mean, nobody was hurt, she didn't do it with enough force to hurt anybody (although it was an elbow, granted) - I just advised the coach to let her sit out for the rest of the half and cool off, and avoided a ten-minute drama spiel. It was better for the game.

I had a very similiar situation at the 7th grade level (Weekend tournament). Approximately 2 minutes left in a 3-point game, scramble for loose ball, two opposing players get into held ball situation. I whistle as I am closing in and BAM! The smaller player swings an elbow into the chest of the other player in a "get off me" gesture. I instantaneously WHACK her for the dead ball contact.

As the FT's are administered I am thinking I should have just warned her. Then her coach calls to me for an explaination. He had been quiet throughout the game, so I figured this would be uneventful. As I finished telling him what I saw, he turned to his player (the offender) and sternly asked her, "Do you see why I tell you to stay in control?" He then turned to thank me for making the call. I did notice the the offender apologized to the "victim".

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by williebfree


JRutledge...

I sincerely hope that none of us have to deal with a coach who is this stubborn, but I want to be prepared. I may be a bit anal here, but I want to clarify this scenerio for myself and others.

Again, you have provided some reasonable information about game management, but you have not referenced any rules that support the procedure you initially indicated that you would use in your original response.

If you need a rule to justify everything you do, then that is your first mistake. I am giving you a way to handle a situation without throwing kids out and having to justify something on black and white side of the rules, this will not work for you.

Originally posted by williebfree
I have noticed, in this latest response, that you have backed off from assessing the flagrant AFTER the coach refused to sub for his player, but you indicate that you will now strictly enforce rules for the remainder of the game and be on high alert for potential fights.

I did not back off of anything. I said that this is what I would do and if the coach does not accomidate, then I have some options for that coach. I am not talking about enforcing rules just for a fight, but then any contact that I might have passed on, gets called. Plain and simple.

Originally posted by williebfree

Believe it or not, I agree that approaching the coaches and "requesting" them to remove the involved players is good game management. What I disagree with is the decision to issue a flagrant Tech AFTER the coach doesn't heed the warning.

Just curious, can you cite a rule I can use to justify demanding the coach remove his player from the game in this situation (without it being a Flagrant foul or a 2nd T)?

Again, if you need a citation to justify everything you do on the court, then you will have more problems in my opinion. Not because using the rules is wrong, but there are many ways to justify handling situations without any reference to a single rule. There are situations about handling coaches and what to say or not to say on this board right now. If the coach is stupid enough to not get the hint or take the advice, then he has put the ball in the court of my partners and I to call the game. If he plays ball, then we act like nothing happen. No different if I or my partners have warned a coach about his behavior toward us. After being warned and not taking the hint, that next time he steps out the box, you get him. No Mr. Nice Guy. No giving more rope, like we did earlier, just get him. Because I know that many official do their best to try not call Ts and try to talk players and coaches out of situations. If they do not want to listen or they want to complain, then I have a whistle that will solve all those problems.

Peace

[DJ]

There is nothing wrong with telling a coach about a player that in you opinion is about to cross the line. I would avoid demanding and try asking. Generally speaking coaches will appreciate your feedback. However there are other coaches that will try the power struggle issue. Personally I have used it at times and have received mixed results. Like most preventive officiating sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. One thing for sure if I decided not to give the T, that player or those players will have my attention for the next few minutes until they get a handle on their emotions. Like most preventive officiating there is no cure all that will work in all stiuations but the main thing is to address the issue quickly because if you don't call attention to the problem it will only get worse before it gets better. The last thing we want to do is to toss a player but if that is what the situation calls for then so be it. Sometimes we have an opportunity to handle it in other ways but sometimes our cards have already been dealt and so we do what we have to do!! It is all part of the experience factor and we need to try various approaches to tough situations and learn what works and develop our own style of officiating. When I was young I was confrontational and that worked for me but as I got older I have mellowed and now that works for me. I believe that what was done can work with some coaches and players but for others, well, they are difficult to deal with and will always be that way!

[red]

Related to many of the discussions between coaches and officials, I personally think it comes down to communication skills. If the officials come across as weak and non-assertive, an aggressive coach may take that to his advantage. If the officials remain professional and come across assertive in their actions (and communication), there should not be situation where they loose control of the game. Moral: Be quick, decisive, assertive, and professional.

[davidw]

DJ and red,

very nice summary! Thanks.