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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 15, 2004, 11:44am
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Hawkscoach--
I dont understand why you say it would be ok to call a T last 2 seconds of close game but not before. What if it were a tie game in 2nd or 3rd quarter? Wouldn't the made 3 point shot still have an affect on outcome of game potentially? If you warn and not T team you cannot disallow shot attempt. I can see warning if shot does not go in, maybe.

Just curious

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 15, 2004, 11:55am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Luv2Ref
Hawkscoach--
I dont understand why you say it would be ok to call a T last 2 seconds of close game but not before. What if it were a tie game in 2nd or 3rd quarter? Wouldn't the made 3 point shot still have an affect on outcome of game potentially? If you warn and not T team you cannot disallow shot attempt. I can see warning if shot does not go in, maybe.

Just curious

LUV 2:

I think what Hawks is saying here that there is an appropriate time and place to warn a coach about this play in some situations. This is using good game management. In our game this occurred with 7 seconds to go in the first quarter. My partner simply told him about the infraction at the quarter break and we never saw the play again all night. At the time the play occurred my partner and I were the only 2 in the Gym that knew the play was illegal. The opposing coach never even knew of our discussion with the offending coach. IMO a little preventative officiating prevents many problems. Obviously if this play was run again or in a game deciding situation, we would have had to administer the immediate T.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 15, 2004, 12:33pm
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My question still is if this play is run to success in the earlier quarters for a goal, how does a warning make up for the 2or3 points score illegally? In a close game!
I understand the prev. officiating part but this play has a direct affect on the outcome of game.

I also would take into account how much advantage was gained by the screen on the defender. If it really affected play. However, it seems the play discription at the beginning of this post seemed clear a distint advantage was gained for a goal? How does a casual warning make up for this? I believe more varsity coaches know this rule than we give them credit for.

Did anyone see the play on TV where the kid runs in doorway, down the hallway adjacent to the gym and back into the gym in 2nd doorway to get open for a game winning hoop!
Again, I realize this one is a little more obvious to call, however, the made bucket remains the same.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 15, 2004, 01:01pm
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I guess another issue I've got, is what happens when you discreetly warn A's coach. B sees the play worked against his team early, and uses it to get open for a game winning shot as time expires. Ooh, now you're in a sticky situation.
Now, if you warn both coaches that this play is illegal, yet B just got burned on it, you're also asking for trouble.

Wow, the more I think about this play, the more I'd like to see it as a violation rather than a T.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 15, 2004, 03:17pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Luv2Ref
My question still is if this play is run to success in the earlier quarters for a goal, how does a warning make up for the 2or3 points score illegally? In a close game!
I understand the prev. officiating part but this play has a direct affect on the outcome of game.

I also would take into account how much advantage was gained by the screen on the defender. If it really affected play. However, it seems the play discription at the beginning of this post seemed clear a distint advantage was gained for a goal? How does a casual warning make up for this? I believe more varsity coaches know this rule than we give them credit for.

Did anyone see the play on TV where the kid runs in doorway, down the hallway adjacent to the gym and back into the gym in 2nd doorway to get open for a game winning hoop!
Again, I realize this one is a little more obvious to call, however, the made bucket remains the same.
Mathematically you are correct. but every game has ebbs and flows, players and coaches make decisions and plays based on scores, and I am of the school of thought that two points early doesn't really decide a game, despite all points counting equal.

If I am going to allow three consecutive baskets by the opposition before a TO, or set a point spread where I will call a TO to adjust what we are doing, then an early basket gets us to that point a bit quicker, but does not change the outcome - we adjust and it has or doesn't have it's desired outcome. Give somebody two points as the clock runs out, I can't do anything about it now. That is why it is absolutely essential that refs get the last two minutes of a close game right, because a mistake there has far more impact in that teams have no chance to recover.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 15, 2004, 03:27pm
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Quote:
[i]Originally posted by Hawks Coach [/B]
That is why it is absolutely essential that refs get the last two minutes of a close game right, because a mistake there has far more impact in that teams have no chance to recover. [/B][/QUOTE]

To say that it is "essential" that refs get the last two minutes of a close game right is basically saying that officials win or lose close games.

All calls have equal importance.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 15, 2004, 03:38pm
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I never have said that officials win and lose games. I consistently say the opposite. But I will always maintain that you want to do everything possible to get it right at the end. You cannot be perfect for an entire game, but you want to be as good as possible at the end in a close game.

The wrong OOB call in a tie game with 5 seconds to play is not the same as that same call in the first quarter. A blarge in that same sitch is far worse than the blarge in the first quarter - you don't want it ever, but you sure don't want that call in the last seconds of a tie game. To pretend otherwise is highly idealistic.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 15, 2004, 03:55pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hawks Coach
You cannot be perfect for an entire game, but you want to be as good as possible at the end in a close game.
This statement is true for coaches and players as well. Don't get me wrong, I have been coaching a lot longer than officiating. And I understand where you're coming from. But I've seen many players and coaches (myself included) who've screwed up in the critical final minutes of a game. As an official, I believe that I take more pride in being as good as possible at the end than I ever do as a coach.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 15, 2004, 04:41pm
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I think most good refs feel that way

And you and the players have a heck of a lot more to do with how the end comes out than us coaches, despite what you might think listening to Dickie V. We have an influence, but if we didn't get it right on the practice court, we ain't fixin' it with 5 seconds to go. We just set the table, the players gotta cook the food and eat it!
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 15, 2004, 04:46pm
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Re: I think most good refs feel that way

Quote:
Originally posted by Hawks Coach
We just set the table, the players gotta cook the food and eat it!
Then how come the coaches are the ones who get that sick feeling in their stomaches after a tough loss!
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