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-   -   legal inbound play?? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/11701-legal-inbound-play.html)

MN 3 Sport Ref Wed Jan 14, 2004 11:45am

Varsity HS boys game last night. This view is presented from that of the lead. Team A inbound just outside right lane line. A1 passes in to A2 who is outside left block. A2 passes to A3 who is at top of key. A3 then passes to inbounder who is in right corner who drains a 3. Seems legal right. Here is the wrinkle. A1 remained OOB for (a conservative) 3 seconds and then moves 6-8 feet OOB around a screen and catches the ball IB to drain the 3. FED Rule 10.3.3 and case book 10.3.3 sitch B seems to very explicitly say that this is a technical foul for delaying to return after legally being OOB. We warned the coach between quarters that this was the case and of course he acted as if we were nuts. Just want some thoughts of the board on this. (May have been brought up in a prev thread) Thanks.

[Edited by MN 3 Sport Ref on Jan 14th, 2004 at 10:57 AM]

BktBallRef Wed Jan 14, 2004 11:51am

No argument here.

If he did it again, I'd whack him.

I don't know that I wouldn't have done it the first time, even without warning him.

garote Wed Jan 14, 2004 11:54am

You got it right. Whether or not the coach believed you.

Adam Wed Jan 14, 2004 01:54pm

Whack him, then explain it to the coach.

BayStateRef Wed Jan 14, 2004 05:31pm

My partner called a T on exact play last year, but I was on bench side so I ended up explaining it to JV coach (and to varsity coach who was on the bench). It was a deliberate play ("Every team in the league has this play," she said), executed perfectly and despite the lesson, I would not be surprised if she used it again.

Hawks Coach Wed Jan 14, 2004 06:03pm

I don't run plays like this (because they aren't legal!) but have had many run against me. I would expect a warning, then a T. No rule book support, but it seems like a good game managment approach. Nobody calls these teams on it (that's why they run it), it is not a commonly known rule (that's why it isn't called and you get flack when it is), so to whack them right away seems a bit strong. Educate, then punish.

Adam Wed Jan 14, 2004 06:08pm

I see your point, coach. But it's hard to justify stopping play to issue a warning that isn't prescribed in the rules. If I don't stop play, we allow team A to get an illegal advantage. The only way I can really stop play here is with a T.

Hawks Coach Wed Jan 14, 2004 06:11pm

Two seconds left and this play wins the game - I would maybe go with the T because it leads to an unfair outcome. First quarter, let the play develop and then talk to the coach. That two points isn't going to win or lose the game. The T could create issues that you don't need at that juncture, and is out of line with how other refs (don't) enforce the rule. JMO

wizard Wed Jan 14, 2004 06:17pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
I don't run plays like this (because they aren't legal!) but have had many run against me. I would expect a warning, then a T. No rule book support, but it seems like a good game managment approach. Nobody calls these teams on it (that's why they run it), it is not a commonly known rule (that's why it isn't called and you get flack when it is), so to whack them right away seems a bit strong. Educate, then punish.
"No rule book support"? I beg to differ. I understand how you feel it's a little harsh. The ruling is the same as if a player steps OOB to avoid a 3 second call. That too, sounds a little harsh. But its that way for a reason.

Hawks Coach Wed Jan 14, 2004 06:24pm

wizard
I was saying that there is no rule book support for my way of handling things, not that there is no rule book support for making the call. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

I am merely expressing as a coach, and one who can only lose out from my way of doing things since I don't run these plays, I don't like the T on the first time they run this play. I have seen these plays since I started coaching, never seen a warning or T. I have asked refs to stop teams from running this illegal play, and they treat me like I am from another planet. If most officials do not understand this rule and won't call it, then how can a coach know that this is a rule and expect a call.

I believe the T is put in the rulebook due to the unsporting nature of this play (unfair use of an OOB position). But it is really only unsporting if you know you are breaking a rule, and few participants, including officials, seem to know that. So that's why I suggest a warning, then a T.

wizard Wed Jan 14, 2004 06:35pm

Coach,
I agree with you.

Why not make it a violation? If a inbounding player moves from his designated throw-in spot, its a violation. Why not here?

It clear is a rule. But give out a T and get ready for some heat. Coach, maybe that's why the refs don't call it for you. They know what's on the horizon.

Hawks Coach Wed Jan 14, 2004 06:47pm

Actually, I don't ever ask for a T. I would ask them to inform the other coach that running such a play again will result in a T. But I can't get beyond the puzzled look on their face when I try to explain what is illegal.

Honestly, I don't think I have ever mentioned this to a ref that understood this rule.

Adam Wed Jan 14, 2004 08:41pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Hawks Coach

Honestly, I don't think I have ever mentioned this to a ref that understood this rule.
Easy reason here. You wouldn't have had to. I agree, that it should be a violation. Maybe even a violation the first time, and a T the second time.

JeffTheRef Thu Jan 15, 2004 12:05am

I've been through this 50 times.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by MN 3 Sport Ref
Varsity HS boys game last night. This view is presented from that of the lead. Team A inbound just outside right lane line. A1 passes in to A2 who is outside left block. A2 passes to A3 who is at top of key. A3 then passes to inbounder who is in right corner who drains a 3. Seems legal right. Here is the wrinkle. A1 remained OOB for (a conservative) 3 seconds and then moves 6-8 feet OOB around a screen and catches the ball IB to drain the 3. FED Rule 10.3.3 and case book 10.3.3 sitch B seems to very explicitly say that this is a technical foul for delaying to return after legally being OOB. We warned the coach between quarters that this was the case and of course he acted as if we were nuts. Just want some thoughts of the board on this. (May have been brought up in a prev thread) Thanks.

[Edited by MN 3 Sport Ref on Jan 14th, 2004 at 10:57 AM]

Warn 'em, if you like, then T the player if they don't clean it up. That inbounds play has been around since . . . before 'Nam It's wise-*** coaching.

rainmaker Thu Jan 15, 2004 02:57am

Quote:

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Actually, I don't ever ask for a T. I would ask them to inform the other coach that running such a play again will result in a T. But I can't get beyond the puzzled look on their face when I try to explain what is illegal.

Honestly, I don't think I have ever mentioned this to a ref that understood this rule.

Hawks' Coach, I hope that you and I have a game together someday. I promise not to give you a funny look if you bring it up. But you won't have to, since I will have already dealt with it.


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