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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 11, 1999, 07:18pm
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Don't mean to beat a dead horse, but the thread below was getting pretty long so I thought I'd start a new one on just a single point. I was a little confused about what the original posts were asking regarding starting a 10 second backcourt court, so let me focus on only that. Here's the scenario: A1 dribbling in frontcourt. A2 and A3 are still in their backcourt, picking their nose, checking out the babes in row 5, whatever. B1 slaps the ball away from A1. The ball DOES NOT touch A1 prior to going into A's backcourt. B1 does not pursue the ball, since there are members of team A back there and he feels the effort would be futile. Since A2 and A3 are about one fry short of a Happy Meal anyway, they also don't go after the ball and it kind of just bounces or rolls around in A's backcourt. Here's the multi-part question: 1)do you start a 10 second backcourt count 2)if so, when - when the ball achieves backcourt status or when it is touched by a member of A in the backcourt (if ever) 3)if the ball is untouched by A, would you actually count in a real game and 4)if not, why not. My answers are: 1)yes 2)when the ball first touches the backcourt 3)yes 4)n/a. What are yours? BTW - Happy Meal is a registered trademark of McDonald's, Inc. Just thought I'd throw that in.
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Old Thu Nov 11, 1999, 11:38pm
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Of course i agree with you, since i was the one who started that tangent in the other thread.

Unfortunately, i can recall only two times that i've seen another ref start a visible count in this situation in my 3+ years of officiating in my chapter...

[This message has been edited by ken roberts (edited November 12, 1999).]
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Old Fri Nov 12, 1999, 01:43am
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I really found that interesting!
Did some homework and agree.
I'm smarter than I was.
mick
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Old Sun Nov 14, 1999, 01:31am
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HI, I'M NEW TO THIS SO I THOUGHT I WOULD TAKE A LOOK. INTERESTING SCENERIO. YES THE COUNT SHOULD BEGIN WHEN THE BALL REACHES BACK COURT.
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 15, 1999, 01:57am
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I disagree with all of you. There would not be a new 10 second count started, unless team A gets the ball again. No where in the rule book does it say to start another count. It's like an inbounded pass, once the pass is let go, the count stops. That ball can roll forever, and no violation.
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Old Mon Nov 15, 1999, 08:37am
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No where in the rule book does it say to start another count.

Sure it does. Rule 9-8: "A player shall not be, nor may his/her team be, in continuous control of the ball which is in his/her backcourt for 10 seconds."

Keep in mind that Team A still had control of the ball after the bat by B, since team control contiunes until: the ball is in flight for a try, an opponent secures control of the ball, or the ball becomes dead. (4-12-3)

Thus, once the ball attains backcourt status in control of Team A (i.e. in this case when the ball hits the floor), a 10-second count should commence.
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Old Mon Nov 15, 1999, 05:14pm
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I am sorry but, you are still wrong. The only way that a new 10 second count will start, is if team A touches the ball again. There is no team control in this situation. If you say that there is, then if the ball oges out of bounds who gets the ball? A would right. After talking to my 2 mentors that do Div. 1 (pac 10) they both said that they would not start the count until the ball is touched by A again.

You might want to ask around about this one, there is no way that a count will start until the ball is touched.
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Old Mon Nov 15, 1999, 07:26pm
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Dennis,

Your D1 buddies probably never have had the occasion for this scenario in the first place. In D1, someone from one of the teams is going to be on the ball RIGHT NOW.

That being said, by rule (and the specific rules were correctly referenced above) the 10 second count begins when the ball is in Team Control in the backcourt -- whether anyone is touching the ball or not.

What do you do if B1 bats the ball to backcourt, where it rolls to a stop, and no one goes to get it? Stand and do nothing until the quarter runs out? I don't think so.

Scenario: Team A inbounds and A1 brings the ball up near midcourt (still in Backcourt) and is pressured by B1.
What if B1, near halfcourt and in the backcourt, knocks the ball away from A1 and it rolls back toward the endline? You had your 10-count going, and you continue your 10-count. A1 must go get the ball and get it into the froncourt before you get to 10.

You'll say it is a different situation, but it is not. A team in control (which Team A is in BOTH scenarios) has 10 seconds to get the ball into the frontcourt.

dk
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Old Mon Nov 15, 1999, 10:11pm
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Your case is different from the one above. In your's the ball never got into the frontcourt to start. This is different, in your words the 10 second count starts once the ball hits the floor. When you inbound the ball, no count starts until the ball is touched. There are different things covered by the same rule, that have different calls.
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Old Mon Nov 15, 1999, 11:29pm
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The only way that a new 10 second count will start, is if team A touches the ball again. There is no team control in this situation.

How did Team A lose team control of the ball? Keep in mind that Rule 4-12-3 specifically states that the only ways team control ends are:

a. The ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal.

b. An opponent secures control.

c. The ball becomes dead.

Note that there is no 4-12-3d.: "The ball is batted from the front court to the backcourt."

After talking to my 2 mentors that do Div. 1 (pac 10) they both said that they would not start the count until the ball is touched by A again.

I bet if you ask your mentors, they'll admit that "by rule," the ten-second count should start upon the ball hitting the floor. They choose to wait until A secures the ball because they don't want to make a "Mickey Mouse Call(tm)", but there is no backing for waiting for player control in the rule book.

If you can cite such a rule, i'd be more than happy to change my interpretation...
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Old Tue Nov 16, 1999, 12:13pm
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis Flannery on 11-15-1999 09:11 PM
This is different, in your words the 10 second count starts once the ball hits the floor.

>> Only while Team A is in control of the ball, as team control for Team A does not end merely by B1 batting the ball. <<

When you inbound the ball, no count starts until the ball is touched. There are different things covered by the same rule, that have different calls.


>> This IS a different situation. During a throw-in, there is NO team control until a player on the court gains control. At that point, team control begins along with your 10-count (provided Team A gained control and is in their backcourt).

I'm sticking with Ken Roberts on this one. Ken has stated the proper rule references above to back his case.

You also didn't answer what you would do if B1 deflects the ball backcourt, it rolls to a stop and no one goes and picks it up (or touches it). Would you let the ball lay there indefintely? Let the entire quarter run out? It's in team control in the backcourt - you have to have a count...

Regards,

dk
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Old Tue Nov 16, 1999, 03:09pm
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what would you do if B1 deflects the ball backcourt, it rolls to a stop and no one goes and picks it up (or touches it). Would you let the ball lay there indefintely? Let the entire quarter run out? It's in team control in the backcourt


Mr. King,
After looking at all the scenarios and all the explanations, I do agree with you and Mr. Roberts, but the above is not a good scenario to explain team control. The reason I say this is because you could have a ball deflected by an opponent and it could lay to rest in the frontcourt. At that point, if no one touches it, the team still has control, but at the same time a quarter could virtually run out. I'm not saying that it would, but still. Just trying to make argument. I just think a better explanation of team control (besides the obvious rules already stated) would help others understand.

OVERALL A VERY GOOD DISCUSSION.

[/b]=============================
Zachary "Chunk" McCrite
Indiana High School Officials[/b]
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Old Tue Nov 16, 1999, 03:47pm
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Hey Zach,

The "Mr. King" threw me. I had to double-take and see if my dad was on the board. (He's Mr. King.) Of course I'm also becoming Mr. King since kids' friends now call me that. Oh well, gettin' old)

Now back to the subject. I agree there won't be many times where a ball will simply lay on the floor with no one touching it. And yes, you're right, a ball *could* lay in the frontcourt for an entire quarter if no one were to touch it. (take your check and run!!)
I was just trying to point out that while the ball is in team control in the backcourt, whether anyone is in player control or not, you've got to have your count going.

What area of Indiana are you in? Has the IHSAA decided to go back to a single tourney?
The 2 class system in Illinois took getting used to at first, but I think most fans/schools like it. Gives the smaller schools a shot a state title that they otherwise probably would not have. Little chance for a school with an enrollment of 350 to knock off a school of 3500.
Many say "Look at Milan H.S., they did it" Yes they did and it was 45 years ago...

What's your take on it?

dk
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