Thanks, & new questions

robertclasalle · #1 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 12, 2004, 07:09pm

First, thanks to everyone who responded to my first post (First Game Thoughts). Your advice is much appreciated. What a great site, I plan to visit as much as possible. Attention "BK", I'm from Passaic County in northeastern New Jersey.

Two things that happened this weekend. #1, I'm wearing my coach's hat for this: I was coaching my daughter's 7th/8th grade Rec league game and my best point guard/dribbler was called 3 times for charging. I ignored the first two because we were winning big, but on the third one, I politely asked the ref what he saw. He told me that as soon as my guard puts her shoulder down as she is dribbling past a defender, she is guilty of a charge. I told him that I never heard of that, and that in making a block/charge determination, the first thing to do is to determine whether the defensive guard had a legal guarding position. If yes, then it's probably a charge (unless incidental contact). If no, then it's probably a block (unless incidental contact). The position of my dribbler's shoulder has nothing to do with anything unless she uses it aggressively, in which case it may be another type of penalty but not a block/charge issue. My guard just lowers her shoulder to create a smaller target to try to scoot her way through. It is by no means an offensive move, such as an excessive elbow. This guy will be officiating at other games this year and I want to set him straight if I am right. #2, I'm wearing my ref hat for this: I am officiating at the same Rec league level and one team has an outstanding dribbler. The table people and opposing coach tell me to watch #3, she carries the ball while dribbling. I then focus on her and discover that this 14 year old 8th grade girl already knows how to do what every NBA and college player and many HS players do, she lets the ball rest momentarily (we're talking less than a second) in the palm of her hand while dribbling. This is somewhat hard to articulate but I think we all know what I mean and we all have seen this. She gains no advantage nor does the defense suffer a disadvantage. (P.S.: I have coached against her and would never dream of asking for a violation call against her.) She is just a damn good dribbler. The "carry" occurs while advancing the ball and no additional steps occur than if she did not turn her palm upward. After I saw what I saw, I told the coaches that I would not call her for this because I feel that it's a coaching responsibility to teach her otherwise, not mine as an official. The rule says "palm skyward", which she does, but as I understand the rule, palming/carrying is really a form of a travel or a double dribble and in my opinion, she did not violate. It is not a violation in and of itself. Your thoughts? Would you call her for this?

Jurassic Referee · #2 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 12, 2004, 07:23pm

!)If your point guard made contact with her shoulder on the defender's torso after the defender had attained a legal guarding position,it's a charge and a player control foul.
2)If the ball comes to rest in the dribbler's hand,and she dribbles again, it's a violation.There's no advantage/disadvantage on this type of violations.

blindzebra · #3 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 12, 2004, 08:31pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
!)If your point guard made contact with her shoulder on the defender's torso after the defender had attained a legal guarding position,it's a charge and a player control foul.
2)If the ball comes to rest in the dribbler's hand,and she dribbles again, it's a violation.There's no advantage/disadvantage on this type of violations.

On #2 A1 is 70 feet from the basket with no defensive pressure and the ball comes to a stop as they are dribbling
up the court;are you saying that you are going to call that
a carry?

Jurassic Referee · #4 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 12, 2004, 08:41pm

Quote:

Originally posted by blindzebra

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
!)If your point guard made contact with her shoulder on the defender's torso after the defender had attained a legal guarding position,it's a charge and a player control foul.
2)If the ball comes to rest in the dribbler's hand,and she dribbles again, it's a violation.There's no advantage/disadvantage on this type of violations.

On #2 A1 is 70 feet from the basket with no defensive pressure and the ball comes to a stop as they are dribbling
up the court;are you saying that you are going to call that
a carry?

Yes, at that age.Wouldn't you?

blindzebra · #5 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 12, 2004, 08:56pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Quote:

Originally posted by blindzebra

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
!)If your point guard made contact with her shoulder on the defender's torso after the defender had attained a legal guarding position,it's a charge and a player control foul.
2)If the ball comes to rest in the dribbler's hand,and she dribbles again, it's a violation.There's no advantage/disadvantage on this type of violations.

On #2 A1 is 70 feet from the basket with no defensive pressure and the ball comes to a stop as they are dribbling
up the court;are you saying that you are going to call that
a carry?

Yes, at that age.Wouldn't you?

No,because she is not gaining an advantage.Now if she looked like she was trying out for an And One Mix Tape,that would be different.

rainmaker · #6 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 12, 2004, 09:02pm

Refs are often taught to gauge block/charge by the shoulder of the dribbler, and the torso of the guard. If it's the shoulder of the dribbler into the torso of the guard, that's almost certainly a PC. Not quite 100%, but your description of what happened sounds like PC to me.

If the palm is skyward, that's the OMIGOD call that must be made anytime anywhere, regardless if the score, the time or who it is. The borderline carry is when the palm is facing sideways, and the ball comes to rest momentarily as the dribbler is trying to decide whcih direction to go next.

ref18 · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 12, 2004, 09:13pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Quote:

Originally posted by blindzebra

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
!)If your point guard made contact with her shoulder on the defender's torso after the defender had attained a legal guarding position,it's a charge and a player control foul.
2)If the ball comes to rest in the dribbler's hand,and she dribbles again, it's a violation.There's no advantage/disadvantage on this type of violations.

On #2 A1 is 70 feet from the basket with no defensive pressure and the ball comes to a stop as they are dribbling
up the court;are you saying that you are going to call that
a carry?

Yes, at that age.Wouldn't you?

Keep calling it until they stop, they'll eventually learn not to do it.

JRutledge · #8 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 12, 2004, 09:33pm

Quote:

Originally posted by blindzebra

No,because she is not gaining an advantage.Now if she looked like she was trying out for an And One Mix Tape,that would be different.

That is funny.

Peace

NICK · #9 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 13, 2004, 12:09am

If I was the trail official and an offensive team player "carried the ball" 70 ft from the basket (which would mean that he/she was in her back-court) with no defensive pressure, I do not call it. I could not see that as gaining an advantage. I can expect that from a beginner referee but not an experienced one.

just another ref · #10 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 13, 2004, 12:18am

Quote:

Originally posted by NICK
I can expect that from a beginner referee but not an experienced one.

Ouch! Be careful, friend. When JR gets back there's gonna be consequences and repercussions.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. · #11 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 13, 2004, 12:24am

Quote:

Originally posted by blindzebra

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
!)If your point guard made contact with her shoulder on the defender's torso after the defender had attained a legal guarding position,it's a charge and a player control foul.
2)If the ball comes to rest in the dribbler's hand,and she dribbles again, it's a violation.There's no advantage/disadvantage on this type of violations.

On #2 A1 is 70 feet from the basket with no defensive pressure and the ball comes to a stop as they are dribbling
up the court;are you saying that you are going to call that
a carry?

Yes. I am going to call it every time until the guard stops doing it starting with the jr. H.S. age group and older.

MTD, Sr.

Adam · #12 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 13, 2004, 10:04am

If the defense is guarding her, and she turns her palm "skyward," it's a carry. Before the "carry" was established a couple of years ago, it's a double dribble. As far as I'm concerned, the dribble stops when the palm is holding the ball upward.
You can debate all you want about whether advantage/disadvantage should be taken into account with this violation, but my concern is that robert said he's not calling it because the action itself doesn't create an advantage. Anything that looks like the dribbler is stopping her dribble creates an advantage if we let her continue to dribble.

A Pennsylvania Coach · #13 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 13, 2004, 10:27am

Advantage/disadvantage should be applied to FOULS, not VIOLATIONS.

If you disagree, which violations do you apply it to? All of them? Or just the ones you choose?

If all of them, when a dribbler in the back court with no defensive pressure puts a toe on the sideline for all the gym to see, right in front of the opposing coach, do you pass on that?

What if instead of a toe, the inbounds pass slips through her hands, bounces off the bleachers and back into her hand? No defensive pressure, no advantage, no call?

You can see how silly this can become.

And, if you insist that the "carry" is no advantage when the dribbler isn't making a move, keep in mind that when we see a dribbler "stop" a dribble by letting the ball come to rest in her hand, ALL FIVE of my defenders are instructed to do something differently (the help defenders can now deny, the deny defenders can go farther into the passing lane, and the ball defender can straighten up, step closer, and begin to trace the ball). If, as we are adjusting to the end of the dribble, the dribbler is then allowed to restart her dribble, we are at a severe DISADVANTAGE.

Jurassic Referee · #14 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 13, 2004, 10:51am

Quote:

Originally posted by Snaqwells
If the defense is guarding her, and she turns her palm "skyward," it's a carry. Before the "carry" was established a couple of years ago, it's a double dribble. As far as I'm concerned, the dribble stops when the palm is holding the ball upward.

This was a POE in the 2000/2001 rulebook. It said that the best way to call this was to watch for the ball to come to rest. The ball could come come to rest with the palm pointing down, and if it did, that ended the dribble. What the offensive player did next determined the type of violation. If they lifted their pivot foot and put it back down again before dribbling, the violation was for travelling. If they immediately dribbled after the ball came to rest, then the violation is a double dribble. I don't think that it really matters which call you use,imo, as long as you do call it.

Jurassic Referee · #15 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 13, 2004, 11:01am

Quote:

Originally posted by A Pennsylvania Coach
Advantage/disadvantage should be applied to FOULS, not VIOLATIONS.

Good post, Coach. I agree with you completely. Advantage/disadvantage is being taken to extemes by some officials who don't really have an idea of what the concept should be. They're using it as a cop-out for not making a proper call. For the guys that say that they're not gonna call a palm or a quick double dribble in the backcourt when there's no pressure, all I can say is I wanna be there when this happens in the last minute of a 1-point game with a crowd of a coupla thousand, and you ignore it. Have fun!