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Fri Dec 05, 2003, 10:32am
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Yesterday, boys' 8th grade game.
A1 commits a common foul near the end of the game. I report it and go to trail position. Partner administers 1 + 1 to B1. Shot is missed. B2 puts back the rebound. During this action, I observed A team coach conferring (or so I thought) with A1 near their bench. Immediatley following the B2 basket, A team coach steps onto court hollering; he yells that A1 has five fouls. (Never mind that he could have been T'd for coming on to the court. At the time, I was thinking, "Good grief, what the heck is going on?") He sends sub to check in for A1. I've still heard nothing from the scorer to this point, so I check. Yep, that was A1's fifth. Drat. Coach A is asking for the B2 put-back to be wiped off the board because it's a correctible error. Partner and I confer and decide that it isn't a correctible situation. We play on with team A to inbound. In looking a Rule 2-10-1, I still don' think it applies in this situation, but I need some help here. Three questions: 1. Was this a correctible error situation? 2. If so or if not, what could/should we have done differently? 3. Given that it was our 'screw up' would you have given a technical foul to A team coach for coming on to the court during the dead ball following B2's basket? By the way, I realize, after the fact, that in this situation, I should have taken just a moment more when reporting to see if the table would indicate a fifth foul. Just goes to show once more the importance of good communication between the table and the on-court officials. I'll be more cautious in the future. Sven 
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Fri Dec 05, 2003, 10:46am
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2. I don't know that there's anything you could have done differently. 3. It's the table's screwup, not yours specifically. Without regard to that, I'm not going to stick a coach for telling me his player has 5 fouls.
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Fri Dec 05, 2003, 10:27pm
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Although, I think the honesty may have been a bit, shall we say, pragmatic. Incidentally, Sven, even if it WERE a Correctible Error, you wouldn't wipe the basket. You NEVER cancel points except for that nasty little 10.1.8 in the case book.
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Fri Dec 05, 2003, 10:48pm
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From a game management perspective...
1) It was a JR high game but if they post fouls on the board, know how many a player has... 2) Unless it was a hackfest, you should learn to keep track of fouls on players. You should have an idea... especially if you have been the one to call 3 or 4 of them on the player... 3) if I know a player has picked up three. I usually tell them quietly when I can " be careful youre getting close" or careful you dont want to foul out... 4) Never be afraid to ask the # of team fouls... 5) if it is the end of the game and there has been a TO, go to the book, know what the score is, ask about players in foul trouble, know when you are going to hit 7 or 10... 6) Nothing wrong with talking to partner--- blue in bonus, blue has a 2 to give to go bonus, 35 white has 4, 22 blue has 4, white has 2 Time out, blue has 1(sounds like something Quaker State Oil would sponsor on ESPN) but a good recapp to keep the crew staright ig good going down the wire...
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Thu Dec 11, 2003, 09:53pm
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the same, yet different
had a similar sitch tonite. I was R, partner was U (he is more experienced than I am fyi). I call a two shot foul on A1. I am administering the FT, I bounce to shooter B1. Shooter dribbles, starts motion, and JUST before he releases the ball for the shot, the table blows the horn, indicating the 5th foul on A1. B1 continues his motion, releases the shot, my partner blows his whistle while shot is in the air. Ball goes in, partner waves off shot. Comes to me. I say 'don't blow your whistle after I have already given ball to player. Table was late to inform us. Shot is good" He says "No, the player is DQ'd and must leave the floor before we can shoot, we will will "re-shoot" the first shot." Not wanting to argue I just go along. Coach of B (who is winning big btw) questions my partner but doesn't put up too much fuss.
What is correct procedure here?
__________________
haven't found a witty quote yet
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Fri Dec 12, 2003, 08:37am
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Re: the same, yet different
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Since the try was in the air when the whistle blew, the try counts. Make the sub for the DQ'd player, and shoot the second throw. It's not a correctable error.
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Fri Dec 12, 2003, 08:41am
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Kelvin
Just a couple of thoughts. In a slow pace game I could see knowing how many fouls an individual has especially if one individual is getting the majority. However in a quick paced game I have better things to do than try and remember who has what fouls. Also I would NEVER ask the table if any players are in foul trouble. I understand your point but that can give a perception that you are out to get someone. Why should I care about a players fouls. Team fouls and timeouts are a good one but most score boards carry the team fouls now so that can just be simply verifying the score and team fouls on the board match the book. If the table is doing their job then we will catch the fifth fouls.
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Fri Dec 12, 2003, 10:19am
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__________________
"It is not enough to do your best; you must know what to do, and then do your best." - W. Edwards Deming
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Fri Dec 12, 2003, 10:27am
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I agree that if you can keep track of stuff it is better. Just don't think that asking that question of the table is the best thing. You usually know who is in foul trouble and who isn't. If the game is so involved that you are loosing track of stuff like that it might not be the game to ask the table who is in foul trouble. Lets say you ask and the next call you make is on one of the players the table told you about. Coach might think that you are asking so that you can call on them. Although you aren't, coaches will nail you with any and everything they can. I agree with the game management and everything just not checking with the table to see who is in foul trouble.
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Fri Dec 12, 2003, 10:53am
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Fri Dec 12, 2003, 10:53am
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Sven,
As Kelvin said, you need to be more involved in the game. You should always know how many fouls each player has. You should also know the names of each player. Kelvin must be the best official when it comes to game management. IF you can't rely on the table for help you are in trouble. When you do your next game bring someone you know and have them work the table, or keep the book yourself. I would like to work a game with Kelvin. With all the info he is getting from the table it must take 2-3 hours to finish a game.
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Fri Dec 12, 2003, 11:37am
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I have worked games with Kelvin, and he is quite aware of the players in the game, how they have played the game and approximately how many fouls they have. It doesn't take 2-3 hours to finish the game if you are aware of what's going on, it helps move the game along, especially a JR High game.
If you think someone might be getting close on fouls his suggestion is to consult the table, if there are a few players with 4, let your partner know and have the table inform the coach. You don't need to look at the book or ask how many fouls are on blue 23. Simply ask the the table, if there is anyone in foul trouble and where the team fouls are at? You're getting the information you need without targeting anyone. If you don't remember the players number at least you know that someone on blue is close and you would want to verify with the table if you were to call a foul on blue. I'm not as worried about this type of thing during a JV or Varsity game where the table personel are a little more qualified and experienced. Be safe Kelvin.
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Fri Dec 12, 2003, 11:55am
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