NFHSQuestions

[foxwhistler]

I had some pretty interesting calls in some games yesterday. I'm not sure I made all the right ones though. Maybe someone could help.

There's a loose ball in my area. A kid is on his knees, gains possession. He dribbles to stand up. It seemed fine to me. My partner called a travel. Who was right?

We had an intentional foul on a throw in (B2 holding A2, after a made field goal by B). Following the free throws, I administered the ball on the same baseline that the foul occurred at. A's thrower asks if he can still run the baseline. I told him he could, though I wasn't sure. Was I correct?

Incidently, as the whistle blew, A1 attempted to inbound with a bounce pass which B1 kicked. If we hadn't called an intentional foul, we would have had a kicked ball. Would the inbounder be allowed to run in that case?

Just prior to the toss, A's jumper pushes B's jumper. We award two free throws to B's jumper and the ball at the dividing line. Should the arrow be set to A's direction when the ball is made available to the inbound thrower?

Right after a made basket and prior to B possessing the ball to throw it in, A5 and B5 get locked up and give each other a pretty good shove. I called a double foul--should it actually be a double technical foul since both fouls occurred during a dead ball?

I was telling A4 to get out of the lane when my whistle blew inadvertently. Just as my whistle blew, A2 shoots. I disallowed the basket. The only thing I could find in the case book was 7-5-4, but it doesn't indicate whether the bucket counts. Any ideas?

Thanks in advance to anyone who has input. If you have specific rule #'s that's great too!

Tom

[som44]

as to 1
as long as he started dribble before he stood up i think it is legal--2003-2004 casebok-4.43.5
2) assuming the throw in was after a made basket i believe they can still run the end line 7-5 art7
3) yes they can run end line 7-5 art 7
4) yes-casebook-6.3.1
5)i think double technical unless the ball was at the disposal of the throw-in team
6) if the ball was in flight when whistle blew -the basket should count--if not in flight no basket 6.7art 5 9see exceptions)

well at least those are my thoughts --i would be interested in others also

[Damian]

One foul during jump, ater shots, when ball is placed at the disposal of B, arrow will point to A.

If the ball came in bounds and was kicked, the ball would be placed in at the spot.

[cropduster]

Wow!!!

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by foxwhistler
I had some pretty interesting calls in some games yesterday. I'm not sure I made all the right ones though. Maybe someone could help.

There's a loose ball in my area. A kid is on his knees, gains possession. He dribbles to stand up. It seemed fine to me. My partner called a travel. Who was right?

You were correct...can't travel during a dribble...rules fundamentals...page 1 (or so)

We had an intentional foul on a throw in (B2 holding A2, after a made field goal by B). Following the free throws, I administered the ball on the same baseline that the foul occurred at. A's thrower asks if he can still run the baseline. I told him he could, though I wasn't sure. Was I correct?

Yes...assuming the closest spot OOB to the foul was on the endline.

However, why is it an intentional foul? In spite of what some believe, it is not necessarily an intentional foul when there is a foul during the throw in (at least in NFHS). Most times this will be a common foul.

Incidently, as the whistle blew, A1 attempted to inbound with a bounce pass which B1 kicked. If we hadn't called an intentional foul, we would have had a kicked ball. Would the inbounder be allowed to run in that case?

Yes...assming the kick were closer to the endline than the sideline.

Just prior to the toss, A's jumper pushes B's jumper. We award two free throws to B's jumper and the ball at the dividing line. Should the arrow be set to A's direction when the ball is made available to the inbound thrower?

Why two FTs? It the first foul of the game, the ball was live (just prior to the toss). It's not that much different than a shove on a rebound. If this were an OT toss, there may be some history that would warrant a stiffer call.

That said, if it was hard enough to be considered intentional. The arrow is set as you say since you called an intentional foul (which is not a common foul).

Right after a made basket and prior to B possessing the ball to throw it in, A5 and B5 get locked up and give each other a pretty good shove. I called a double foul--should it actually be a double technical foul since both fouls occurred during a dead ball?

Yes...if it was clearly after the ball was through the basket. If it were close, your choice depending on the game.

I was telling A4 to get out of the lane when my whistle blew inadvertently. Just as my whistle blew, A2 shoots. I disallowed the basket. The only thing I could find in the case book was 7-5-4, but it doesn't indicate whether the bucket counts. Any ideas?

If you're telling him to get out, he's probably been there for 3+. Just go ahead with the 3 second call and move on. Otherwise, you'll have a bigger mess.

However, if you do go with the inadvertant whistle, the try would could if and only if the ball has airborne at the time of the whistle. Continuous motion does not apply to inadvertant whistles, only fouls.

Thanks in advance to anyone who has input. If you have specific rule #'s that's great too!

Tom

[Edited by Camron Rust on Nov 3rd, 2003 at 05:26 PM]

[cmathews]

I agree with most..however in situation 2 I am not sure...I see the point as to why, but I am not sure that the administration of the throws doesn't lift this...interesting though....

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Damian
If the ball came in bounds and was kicked, the ball would be placed in at the spot.

Afraid not. A1 would still be able to run the baseline, provided the baseline was the closest spot to the violation.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Damian
One foul during jump, ater shots, when ball is placed at the disposal of B, arrow will point to A.

If the ball came in bounds and was kicked, the ball would be placed in at the spot.

Damian, I'm not sure what you're saying here, but on an alternating possession throw-in, arrow doesn't switch until the throw-in is complete. ARROW DOES NOT CHANGE WHEN BALL IS AT DISPOSAL. Very important. Please, please let's all work hard to get this correct. I'm tired of correcting table people, and coaches and mis-informed parents.

End of rant.

[Nevadaref]

I can't believe that you had all of this happen in one game!

For the rulings, I agree with all of Camron's answers, except I'm not sure that the ball was live for the foul in your toss play. I'm also going to give you detailed and specific references for the plays from BOTH the casebook and rules book. Sometimes it is a great help to read the casebook plays on these situations.

1. Can't travel during a dribble, 4.43.5 Sit B and Rules Fundamentals #6 on page 77
2. Intentional foul during throw-in means the team retains the right to run the endline, 7.5.7 Sit D, 7-5-7
3. Kicked ball near the endline means the team retains the right to run, 7.5.7 Sit B and 7-5-7
4. The ball becomes live on a jump ball when the tossed ball leaves the referee's hand. (6-1-2a) If the contact occurred before this and you judge that it is intentional (4-19-3) or flagrant (4-19-4) then it is a technical foul because the ball was dead (4-19-5c, 10-3-8), otherwise the contact is ignored (4-19-1 NOTE), and ANYONE on the opposing team may attempt the free throws, not just the player who was fouled. (8-3)
If the ball has left the ref's hand, then the foul could be either a common foul (4-19-2), an intentional foul, or a flagrant foul at your discretion, but it is a personal foul since the ball was live(4-19-1), and the player who was fouled must attempt the free throws, if any, unless he is injured. (8-2) If it is a common foul and the team is not in the bonus (say we are having the original jump to start the game) then no free throws are awarded (Summary of Penalties for all Fouls 1a pg. 67 rules book), but if they are in the bonus (the jump is to start an extra period and this team has committed the required number of fouls for the bonus) award what is appropriate, 1-and-1 or 2. (Summary of Penalties for all Fouls 3a+b pg. 67 rules book)
As for the AP arrow, 4-3 and some casebook plays cover how to set the initial arrow. If the foul was a technical, we won't have a jump ball (6-1-2 NOTE), and the arrow will be set when the ball is placed at the disposal of the THROWER for the division line throw-in. (4-3-3b, 6.3.1 Sit A)
If the foul was an intentional or flagrant personal do the same thing as for a T, but strictly speaking we did have a jump ball, it just didn't last very long. (4-3-3b, 6.3.1 Sit E)
If the foul was a common foul then you set the arrow when you place the ball at the disposal of the FREE-THROWER, if the team is in the bonus (4-3-2, 4.3.2 Sit) or when you place the ball at the disposal of the THROWER, if they are not shooting. (4-3-3c, 6.3.1 Sit E)
5. If the fouls occurred during the dead ball following the goal, then a double-technical should be called. (4.19.7 Sit A part b) No free throws are awarded and the AP arrow is used for possession.
If the fouls happened after the ball was at the disposal of the team that was scored upon, then the ball is live and a double-personal foul should be called. (4.19.7 Sit A part a) Still no free-throws and use the arrow.
6. NFHS calls this an "Accidental Whistle" in 7.5.4 Sit., but as you said this casebook play does not say whether or not the try counts or even if it was successful. I believe that in this play it must not have been successful based upon the ruling given, and that in the future this new casebook play will be changed to clarify this. Anyway, what you want is in 4-11 and 6-7.
Since this whistle was not for a foul by the opponents (6-7 Exception #3), continuous motion (4-11) does not apply, and the field goal only counts if the ball was in flight at the time of the whistle (6-7-5 Exception #1.), otherwise the ball becomes dead immediately. (6-7-5)
Lastly, Camron's suggestion that you just go with the 3-second violation is fine if the ball was still in the shooter's hand, but by rule you cannot have a 3-second violation if the try has been released since team control has ended. (9-7-1, 4-12-3a)

[tomegun]

Wow. Good job, nevadaref.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
4. The ball becomes live on a jump ball when the tossed ball leaves the referee's hand. (6-1-2a) If the contact occurred before this and you judge that it is intentional (4-19-3) or flagrant (4-19-4) then it is a technical foul because the ball was dead (4-19-5c, 10-3-8), otherwise the contact is ignored (4-19-1 NOTE), and ANYONE on the opposing team may attempt the free throws, not just the player who was fouled. (8-3)
If the ball has left the ref's hand, then the foul could be either a common foul (4-19-2), an intentional foul, or a flagrant foul at your discretion, but it is a personal foul since the ball was live(4-19-1), and the player who was fouled must attempt the free throws, if any, unless he is injured. (8-2) If it is a common foul and the team is not in the bonus (say we are having the original jump to start the game) then no free throws are awarded (Summary of Penalties for all Fouls 1a pg. 67 rules book), but if they are in the bonus (the jump is to start an extra period and this team has committed the required number of fouls for the bonus) award what is appropriate, 1-and-1 or 2. (Summary of Penalties for all Fouls 3a+b pg. 67 rules book)
As for the AP arrow, 4-3 and some casebook plays cover how to set the initial arrow. If the foul was a technical, we won't have a jump ball (6-1-2 NOTE), and the arrow will be set when the ball is placed at the disposal of the THROWER for the division line throw-in. (4-3-3b, 6.3.1 Sit A)
If the foul was an intentional or flagrant personal do the same thing as for a T, but strictly speaking we did have a jump ball, it just didn't last very long. (4-3-3b, 6.3.1 Sit E)

Nevada, Im not sure about all this, but I don't have any extra time to argue about all of it. Could someone else please sift this and confirm or deny the various details? Thanks.

juulie

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by rainmaker

Could someone else please sift this and confirm or deny the various details? Thanks.

Juulie, I went thru it pretty carefully, and it all seems pretty good to me. The only confusing part is when to set the arrow, but I think Nevada nailed it. For non-common fouls, you set the arrow when the ball is at the inbounder's disposal; for common fouls (when the offended player shoots FTs), you set the arrow when the ball is at the shooter's disposal. 4-3-2 and 4-3-3.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by rainmaker

Damian, I'm not sure what you're saying here, but on an alternating possession throw-in, arrow doesn't switch until the throw-in is complete. ARROW DOES NOT CHANGE WHEN BALL IS AT DISPOSAL. Very important. Please, please let's all work hard to get this correct. I'm tired of correcting table people, and coaches and mis-informed parents.

Actually, he's correct on the first one and incorrect on the second one.

Since the arrow has not previously bveen set, it is set when B gets the ball because they now have the ball for the first opportunity of the game. The arrow is SET in this situation. It's not CHANGED, such as after a throw-in or violation.