10 second count

Jay R · #1 (**permalink**) Sun Nov 02, 2003, 08:45pm

Tonight's zone meeting brought up this situation. NCAA rules: A4 is standing in the front court, his pass is deflected by B4 into the backcourt. When does the 10 second count begin? When the ball touches the backcourt or when the ball is touched by a team A player in the backcourt?

Jay

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. · #2 (**permalink**) Sun Nov 02, 2003, 08:56pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Jay R
Tonight's zone meeting brought up this situation. NCAA rules: A4 is standing in the front court, his pass is deflected by B4 into the backcourt. When does the 10 second count begin? When the ball touches the backcourt or when the ball is touched by a team A player in the backcourt?

Jay

By rule the backcourt count starts when the ball gains backcourt status.

How do 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 9% of all officials do it? As soon as a player of Team A establishes player control of the ball in Team A's backcourt, the backcourt count starts.

JeffTheRef · #3 (**permalink**) Mon Nov 03, 2003, 02:27am

which leads to one of the other amazing circumstances that truly, and rightly, never gets called - at least by Fed rules, during a loose ball team control remains with the team that had control, so that, in theory, you can have a 3-second violation during a long loose ball episode . . . right? Same thing during an interrupted dribble.

ocreferee · #4 (**permalink**) Mon Nov 03, 2003, 11:16am

Lucky for me (and all others who call NCAA womens) there's no 10 second count to worry about.

tomegun · #5 (**permalink**) Mon Nov 03, 2003, 01:42pm

Jay [/B][/QUOTE]

By rule the backcourt count starts when the ball gains backcourt status.

How do 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 9% of all officials do it? As soon as a player of Team A establishes player control of the ball in Team A's backcourt, the backcourt count starts. [/B][/QUOTE]

True.

steve brinlee · #6 (**permalink**) Sat Nov 08, 2003, 11:54pm

when it is touched in the back court by a player in his backcourt

Jay R · #7 (**permalink**) Sun Nov 09, 2003, 06:24am

Quote:

Originally posted by steve brinlee
when it is touched in the back court by a player in his backcourt

NCAA: when it touches the backcourt. That does not mean that I will actually be doing this in practice.

Jurassic Referee · #8 (**permalink**) Sun Nov 09, 2003, 06:50am

Quote:

Originally posted by Jay R

Quote:

Originally posted by steve brinlee
when it is touched in the back court by a player in his backcourt

NCAA: when it touches the backcourt. That does not mean that I will actually be doing this in practice.

Why wouldn't you call it right?

Jay R · #9 (**permalink**) Sun Nov 09, 2003, 07:44am

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Quote:

Originally posted by Jay R

Quote:

Originally posted by steve brinlee
when it is touched in the back court by a player in his backcourt

NCAA: when it touches the backcourt. That does not mean that I will actually be doing this in practice.

Why wouldn't you call it right?

Path of least resistance?

Hawks Coach · #10 (**permalink**) Mon Nov 10, 2003, 11:47am

On a deflection into the backcourt, the offense is usually very quick to get to the ball (if they even get it!). It isn't left sitting in the backcourt for 10 seconds. And it would be very rare to have an organized press against the ball that prevented the offense from advancing it across half court before 10 seconds is up, regardless of when you start the count. So reality is it probably doesn't matter.

That said, NCAA or NFHS game, path of least resistance is not the right answer! Start the count when it is supposed to start, not when the coach/fans/players think it should start.

ChuckElias · #11 (**permalink**) Mon Nov 10, 2003, 12:02pm

I can't speak for other officials, but for myself, I am looking at at least 2 or 3 other things and simply forget that there's supposed to be a count. Is the defense is going to try to get the ball for its own easy lay-up? If so, will there be contact in trying to gain possession? If it's a race to the ball, who is actually going to be the one to touch the ball first? If there's no race, is the offensive player going to grab it and kill the play immediately, or let it roll and milk the clock? (If s/he lets it roll, remember where the throw-in will be. . .)

Since at least one of the above will come into play on 99% of plays where the ball bounces into the backcourt, and since the 10-second count will come into play on exactly 0% of those plays, I honestly (for better or worse) simply forget the 10-second count. It's not an intentional thing, where I disregard the count; there's just other stuff going on that holds my attention.

JeffTheRef · #12 (**permalink**) Mon Nov 10, 2003, 12:38pm

at how true this count thing seems to be. I have been just doing like he do my whole . . . career, starting a count if the offense gets the ball. I am reluctant to even bring this up, lest it confuse the multitudes.

By the way, it is a brilliant play, is it not, when the offense let's the defense touch the ball - to take off the backcourt - then contests for the ball. Shmart. Like the Patriots. Go Pats.

Hawks Coach · #13 (**permalink**) Mon Nov 10, 2003, 12:46pm

Sounds like a reasonable approach - you are paying most attention to the most important aspects of the play. That said, if the ball was loose and you thought of it, you could also start a count. If you don't, it is not likely to have any impact on the play, especially not compared with everything else that you need to be thinking about at that moment.

Jurassic Referee · #14 (**permalink**) Mon Nov 10, 2003, 01:59pm

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias
I can't speak for other officials, but for myself, I am looking at at least 2 or 3 other things and simply forget that there's supposed to be a count. Is the defense is going to try to get the ball for its own easy lay-up? If so, will there be contact in trying to gain possession? If it's a race to the ball, who is actually going to be the one to touch the ball first? If there's no race, is the offensive player going to grab it and kill the play immediately, or let it roll and milk the clock? (If s/he lets it roll, remember where the throw-in will be. . .)

Since at least one of the above will come into play on 99% of plays where the ball bounces into the backcourt, and since the 10-second count will come into play on exactly 0% of those plays, I honestly (for better or worse) simply forget the 10-second count. It's not an intentional thing, where I disregard the count; there's just other stuff going on that holds my attention.

How about the play where A1 deflects the ball into the backcourt after team A had player possession in the front court? A2 and B1 race for it,B1 touches the ball first around the end line but B1 doesn't get possession.Then A2 and B1 scuffle around for it and A2 finally comes up with it near the endline. Team A could be 5-6 seconds into the 10 second count by then,right? And you haven't started a count- right? Quite an advantage for Team A,don't ya think?

ChuckElias · #15 (**permalink**) Mon Nov 10, 2003, 02:07pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
How about the play where A1 deflects the ball into the backcourt after team A had player possession in the front court? A2 and B1 race for it,B1 touches the ball first around the end line but B1 doesn't get possession.Then A2 and B1 scuffle around for it and A2 finally comes up with it near the endline. Team A could be 5-6 seconds into the 10 second count by then,right? And you haven't started a count- right? Quite an advantage for Team A,don't ya think?

Perhaps, but since it happens exactly 0% of the time, I'm not too concerned about it. Either B1 establishes control or the ball squirts OOB while they're "scuffling". Almost never does the scuffle last 5-6 -- without the defense establishing control -- with the result that A1 recovers the ball, and continues toward the frontcourt.