Substitute

[Zoochy]

After a basket a Team calls a 60 second Time out. After 30 seconds ALL 5 players for Team A come onto the court. An official is by Team B's bench when the 45 second horn sounds. He tell the bench 1st horn. A few seconds later a substitute from Team A reports to the table and stands at the scorers table. The 2nd horn sounds when Team B is breaking the huddle. As Team B and the official are moving onto the court, the official notices Team A's substitute. He beckons the sub into the game . The sub takes a few steps onto the court and then the Official realizes the substitute player SHOULD NOT not be allowed.
Per rule, what should the Official do?

[Raymond]

I'm guessing this is a gotcha question for one of your friends. Otherwise I don't see why the obvious answer isn't "send them back to the table".

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Zoochy

Per rule, what should the Official do?

Buy drinks for the crew.

Otherwise, I agree with Raymond.

[BillyMac]

This is a slightly different than a substitute who tries to enter "late" without being beckoned.

Technically a technical foul, but most of us would just send him back.

Originally Posted by Raymond

I don't see why the obvious answer isn't "send them back to the table".

There might be another answer that may not be so obvious.

In NFHS (National Federation of State High School Associations) basketball rules, a substitute becomes a player when they enter the game legally. According to NFHS rules, a player officially enters the game when they report to the scorer's table and are beckoned onto the court by an official. The player must also be wearing the appropriate uniform and equipment. Once these conditions are met, the substitute becomes an active participant in the game and must adhere to all rules and regulations governing player conduct and gameplay.

Is the substitute wearing the appropriate uniform and equipment? Yes.

Was the substitute eligible to play (not disqualified, not sitting a tick, etc.)? Yes.

Did the substitute report to the table? Yes.

Was the substitute beckoned onto the court by an official? Yes.

Did the substitute enter the court? Yes.

Can't give the substitute a technical foul for not being beckoned and entering the court.

He entered the game legally due to an error (the beckoning) by the official.

Is this a correctable "mistake"?

Is the official allowed a "do-over"?

Note, in a real game I would probably also send him back.

3-3-3: A substitute becomes a player when he/she legally enters the court. If entry is not legal, the substitute becomes a player when the ball becomes live.

3-3-1: ... the substitute must report or be in position to report to the scorer, prior to the warning signal which is sounded 15 seconds before the end of the intermission or the time-out.

How often do officials just downright kick a rule (timeout by a team not eligible to be granted a timeout) that can't be corrected?

Is this one of them?

The end of the time frame to correct this "mistake" (if correctable) is definitely a live ball.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

In NFHS (National Federation of State High School Associations) basketball rules, a substitute becomes a player when they enter the game legally. According to NFHS rules, a player officially enters the game when they report to the scorer's table and are beckoned onto the court by an official. The player must also be wearing the appropriate uniform and equipment. Once these conditions are met, the substitute becomes an active participant in the game and must adhere to all rules and regulations governing player conduct and gameplay.

I first answered this post (further edited) on my laptop which doesn't have the rulebbok on its hard drive, and my printed rulebook is a floor above me, so I tried ChatGPT.

The entire paragraph above came from ChatGPT.

Despite the fact that ChatGPT will occasionally "hallucinate", it's an amazing tool.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

In NFHS (National Federation of State High School Associations) basketball rules, a substitute becomes a player when they enter the game legally. According to NFHS rules, a player officially enters the game when they report to the scorer's table and are beckoned onto the court by an official. The player must also be wearing the appropriate uniform and equipment. Once these conditions are met, the substitute becomes an active participant in the game and must adhere to all rules and regulations governing player conduct and gameplay.

Alexa also got this pretty much correct, fewer words (nothing about beckoned), but mostly correct.

She also correctly added when a player became a substitute.

[BillyMac]

We've got some timekeepers who don't understand this warning horn substitute rule.

And then we've got "Chicago Black Hawks Jersey Guy", a timekeeper who always wears a Chicago Black Hawks jersey, who from his perch high up on a platform, not only sounds the fifteen second warning horn, but yells, "First horn. No subs" after sounding the horn.

He's been on that perch for about twenty-plus years, and has never missed doing this much appreciated routine.

[Altor]

Most of the timers at the school I'm currently watching the most often raise their index finger as they sound the horn for the 15 second warning and say "1st horn" loud enough for table crew and those in the vicinity to hear him. I witnessed one time, as he was doing that, a home team sub starts past him to report to the scorer. He pointed to him and said directly to the administering official..."He's too late."

Stone Cold.

[FlasherZ]

Happened last night at my son's game. Official beckoned the sub on, then corrected himself - explained it to the coach, and the player waited at the table for the next dead ball.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by FlasherZ

Happened last night at my son's game. Official beckoned the sub on, then corrected himself - explained it to the coach, and the player waited at the table for the next dead ball.

Sounds like 100% the appropriate thing to do in a real game, but on a written exam, once the substitute has been mistakenly beckoned and enters the court, is it too late to send him back because the substitute became a player?

Not reporting to the table would result in an illegal substitution.

Not being beckoned would make this an illegal substitution.

Both result in the substitute not legally becoming a player, along with the possibility of a technical foul penalty.

3-3-3: A substitute becomes a player when he/she legally enters the court.

Is it illegal for a substitute to simply follow the misguided direction of an official?

Where does the rulebook say that the penalty for this otherwise "legal" act is to send him back?