Chin-up

[Zoochy]

Both teams are on the court and before the Referee enters the circle for the Jump Ball, A5 jumps up, grabs the basket ring and does a Chin-up.
Is there a problem? If so, what's the ruling?

[BillyMac]

10-4-3: Player Technical: A player must not: Grasp either basket at any time during the game except to prevent injury; dunk or stuff, or attempt to dunk or stuff a dead ball.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Zoochy

Both teams are on the court and before the Referee enters the circle for the Jump Ball, A5 jumps up, grabs the basket ring and does a Chin-up.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

10-4-3: Player Technical: A player must not: Grasp either basket at any time during the game except to prevent injury; dunk or stuff, or attempt to dunk or stuff a dead ball.

The intent and purpose of this rule (and a similar dunking rule) is to prevent damage to the basket before, or during, the game.

A broken, or distorted, rim could delay a game.

That is why I believe that this rule should be adjudicated as soon as the officials’ jurisdiction begins (similar to the adjudication of pregame dunking).

2-2: Officials’ Jurisdiction: The officials’ jurisdiction, prior to the game, begins when they arrive on the floor. The officials’ arrival on the floor must be at least 15 minutes before the scheduled starting time of the game. The officials’ jurisdiction extends through periods when the game may be momentarily stopped for any reason. The jurisdiction of the officials is terminated and the final score has been approved when all officials leave the visual confines of the playing area.

In Zoochy's original post, the offender was a player, thus no indirect technical foul the head coach.

It could also have been bench personnel if the infraction occurred in pregame warmups, in which case the head coach would receive an indirect technical foul.

10-5-1-I: Bench Technical: The head coach is responsible for his/her own conduct and behavior, as well as substitutes, disqualified team members and all other bench personnel. Bench personnel, including the head coach, must not: Grasping either basket except to prevent injury; dunking or attempting to dunk or stuff a dead ball.

Here’s today's history lesson:

When Lew Alcindor (Kareem Abdul Jabbar) (UCLA 1966-1969, NBA 1969-1989) started playing basketball for UCLA Bruins, NCAA officials felt that the seven foot, two inch All-American center, being especially tall and athletic, could place the ball over the rim and throw it through the hoop with ease. This feat of athleticism which we all know as the dunk, and seems so routine now, was not so routine back in the mid-1960’s. It was considered unfair that he could do it so easily. So the NCAA banned dunking in 1967. This was called the “Alcindor Rule”. Another reason dunking was outlawed was to prevent injury and equipment damage. A distorted rim could delay a game. As a result of the rule, Alcindor developed a great hook shot, the “Sky Hook”, which he used effectively during his playing days in college, and in the NBA. After multiple issues with the new rule and the invention of the breakaway rim the NCAA allowed the dunk to be legal again during 1976-1977 season which was shortly after UCLA Coach John Wooden's retirement. The “Alcindor Rule” eventually trickled down to NFHS rules. In 1967, the NFHS banned dunking in high school basketball games. In 1970, the NFHS also prohibited dunking during pregame warmups. Like the NCAA, the NFHS reversed itself in 1976 and a rule change allowed dunking during the game but not during pregame warmups, nor during intermissions, and with a later rule change in 1978 outlawing dunking a dead ball.

There will be a quiz.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

... outlawing dunking a dead ball.

Infamous game regarding this rule back in the mid-to-late 1970's.

Southern Connecticut State College (my alma mater) versus Springfield College. Winning team wins a one point game at the final buzzer and celebrates by immediately dunking the dead ball while the officials were still in their positions on the court (they didn't even start their off the court trot). Free throw (or free throws) for the technical foul either reversed the victory, or led to an overtime that eventually reversed the victory.

Ouch! I wonder how many suicides the losing players ran at the next practice?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

In Zoochy's original post, the offender was a player, thus no indirect technical foul the head coach.

It could also have been bench personnel if the infraction occurred in pregame warmups, in which case the head coach would receive an indirect technical foul.

When do the five starters on the court become players after the warm-up period?

They are certainly players when the ball becomes live on the toss, but are they players prior to that?

[Zoochy]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

When do the five starters on the court become players after the warm-up period?

They are certainly players when the ball becomes live on the toss, but are they players prior to that?

That is my question. When is the transition from Bench Member to Player?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

When do the five starters on the court become players after the warm-up period? They are certainly players when the ball becomes live on the toss, but are they players prior to that?

Originally Posted by Zoochy

When is the transition from Bench Member to Player?

4-34-1: Players/ Bench Personnel/ Substitutes/ Team Members: A player is one of five team members who are legally on the court at any given time, except intermission.

My opinion: Based on intent and purpose, sometime after player introductions and the final pre-game team huddle, as soon as only five players leave their bench area and head out to the court to gather for the jump ball, that's when they become players. Team members left behind on the bench are then considered bench personnel.

[crosscountry55]

I would even go so far as to say that bench personnel become players when the ball becomes live to start the first quarter. Just as they do when the ball becomes live following any other (extra) period following an intermission.

Granted “pre-game” is not an intermission, but I think there’s enough rule intent there to make that determination.


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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

I would even go so far as to say that bench personnel become players when the ball becomes live to start the first quarter. Just as they do when the ball becomes live following any other (extra) period following an intermission ...

Interesting interpretation.

6-1-2: The ball becomes live when: a. On a jump ball, the tossed ball leaves the official’s hand(s). b. On a throw-in, it is at the disposal of the thrower. c. On a free throw, it is at the disposal of the free thrower.

But I'm not quite sure that crosscountry55's interesting interpretation matches the definition of a player.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

4-34-1: Players/ Bench Personnel/ Substitutes/ Team Members: A player is one of five team members who are legally on the court at any given time, except intermission.

Also not sure that something that happens "before" the game can be considered to be an inter-mission.

Inter - Word-forming element used freely in English, "between, among, during," from Latin inter "among, between, betwixt, in the midst of" (also used extensively as a prefix).

Simply put, five players are on the court, bench personnel are on the bench.

Of course, it's much more complicated than that, especially when it comes to indirect technical fouls (the theme of this thread), but it's a good starting point

[Raymond]

Pre-game T occurs during warm-ups.

After introductions we are lining up for Team A's Technical free throws. Prior to ball being put at disposal of shooter, B1 on the court yells out, "No cap, this is some B**S**t.

Player or Bench personnel?

[Scrapper1]

How can you be a player in a game that hasn't started yet?

[Raymond]

Where is BillyMac when we need a Devil's Advocate?

At what point do we determine a player not listed as a starter is illegally on the court?

At what point is it too late for that?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Pre-game T occurs during warm-ups After introductions we are lining up for Team A's Technical free throws. Prior to ball being put at disposal of shooter, B1 on the court yells out, "No cap, this is some B**S**t. Player or Bench personnel?

Great question. If one really wants to test a rule interpretation, just cite an extreme example.

I'm not even certain if the other nine "players" are mandated to be on the court (lined up on the division line as many, incorrectly, think that they have to do), or if they're allowed to be with teammates in the bench area, some possibly sitting on the bench?

If sitting on the bench, would those starters on the bench have to sit behind the free throw line extended while watching the free throws?

Will we, as officials, tell the other nine "players" to get out of the bench area (and possibly off the bench) and "out onto the court" before we administer the free throws?

My opinion: Once that free throw shooter, before disposal, steps onto the court to shoot free throws, he, his teammates (listed starters), and opponents (listed starters) are all players.

We can't have one "player", the free throw shooter, with everybody else being bench personnel.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

4-34-1: Players/ Bench Personnel/ Substitutes/ Team Members: A player is one of five team members who are legally on the court at any given time, except intermission.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

At what point do we determine a player not listed as a starter is illegally on the court? At what point is it too late for that?

Another great question, one that I've often pondered, but thought too "officious" to actually put any great thought into.

My opinion: When ten "players" are gathering on the court to prepare for the jump ball.

Another related followup question:

When is it too late to penalize? After toss? After tap? After first possession? At first dead ball? After first dead ball? At first clock stoppage? After first clock stoppage? Before first substitution for said illegal starter? After first substitution for said illegal starter? End of officials' jurisdiction?

10-1-2 Administrative Technical: A team must not: Change a designated starter unless necessitated as in 3-2-2a (necessitated by illness, injury, illegal equipment or apparel, etc., or to attempt a technical foul free throw). Penalty: Two free throws plus the ball for a division-line throw-in.

Oddly, I can't find any time limit (statute of limitations) cited.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

How can you be a player in a game that hasn't started yet?

The same as one can have a sound when a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody there to hear it?

When they're one of ten "players" who have legally stepped onto the court?