Chin-up

[Raymond]

Where is BillyMac when we need a Devil's Advocate?

At what point do we determine a player not listed as a starter is illegally on the court?

At what point is it too late for that?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

At what point do we determine a player not listed as a starter is illegally on the court? At what point is it too late for that?

Another great question, one that I've often pondered, but thought too "officious" to actually put any great thought into.

My opinion: When ten "players" are gathering on the court to prepare for the jump ball.

Another related followup question:

When is it too late to penalize? After toss? After tap? After first possession? At first dead ball? After first dead ball? At first clock stoppage? After first clock stoppage? Before first substitution for said illegal starter? After first substitution for said illegal starter? End of officials' jurisdiction?

10-1-2 Administrative Technical: A team must not: Change a designated starter unless necessitated as in 3-2-2a (necessitated by illness, injury, illegal equipment or apparel, etc., or to attempt a technical foul free throw). Penalty: Two free throws plus the ball for a division-line throw-in.

Oddly, I can't find any time limit (statute of limitations) cited.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

At what point do we determine a player not listed as a starter is illegally on the court? At what point is it too late for that?

3.2.2 SITUATION E: Team A designates No. 32 as a starter by the 10-minute time frame prior to the game. In (a), as the teams take the floor for the opening jump ball, the scorer recognizes that No. 34 is on court instead of No. 32 for Team A and notifies the officials. In (b), following about two minutes of play in the first quarter, a time-out is called. The scorer notifies the officials that although Team A No. 32 was a designated starter, No. 34 started instead and is still in the game. RULING: In (a), if Team A’s coach replaces No. 34 for the correct designated starter, No. 32, no penalty is assessed. If Team A’s coach elects to start the game with No. 34 instead of No. 32, a technical foul is assessed to Team A for changing a designated starter. In (b), no penalty is assessed. The infraction had to be discovered and penalized before the ball became live to start the game. Once the ball became live, it was too late to penalize for this specific infraction. (3-2-2a; 10-1-2a Penalty)

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

3.2.2 SITUATION E: Team A designates No. 32 as a starter by the 10-minute time frame prior to the game. In (a), as the teams take the floor for the opening jump ball, the scorer recognizes that No. 34 is on court instead of No. 32 for Team A and notifies the officials. In (b), following about two minutes of play in the first quarter, a time-out is called. The scorer notifies the officials that although Team A No. 32 was a designated starter, No. 34 started instead and is still in the game. RULING: In (a), if Team A’s coach replaces No. 34 for the correct designated starter, No. 32, no penalty is assessed. If Team A’s coach elects to start the game with No. 34 instead of No. 32, a technical foul is assessed to Team A for changing a designated starter. In (b), no penalty is assessed. The infraction had to be discovered and penalized before the ball became live to start the game. Once the ball became live, it was too late to penalize for this specific infraction. (3-2-2a; 10-1-2a Penalty)

This lends to my thought that there are no "players" until the ball is live to start the game.

Though, good luck explaining to both coaches why they have to sit all game when two opponents on the court shove each other prior to the opening jump ball.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

This lends to my thought that there are no "players" until the ball is live to start the game.

I find it interesting that a team could get a "do-over" (substitute in the listed starter) to avoid a penalty if discovered as the "players" gather for the jump ball, or may later get a totally free pass after the ball is tossed.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I find it interesting that a team could get a "do-over" (substitute in the listed starter) to avoid a penalty if discovered as the "players" gather for the jump ball, or may later get a totally free pass after the ball is tossed.

I can't think of a reason a coach would opt for the penalty instead of just making a sub on the first dead ball unless the player were Cal Ripken Jr.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

... unless the player were Cal Ripken Jr.

Cal Ripken, Jr. plays basketball?

My son was third basemen (Ripken played third base late in his career) in Little League and still has a poster of Cal Ripken, Jr. on his childhood bedroom wall.