Chin-up

[crosscountry55]

I would even go so far as to say that bench personnel become players when the ball becomes live to start the first quarter. Just as they do when the ball becomes live following any other (extra) period following an intermission.

Granted “pre-game” is not an intermission, but I think there’s enough rule intent there to make that determination.


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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

I would even go so far as to say that bench personnel become players when the ball becomes live to start the first quarter. Just as they do when the ball becomes live following any other (extra) period following an intermission ...

Interesting interpretation.

6-1-2: The ball becomes live when: a. On a jump ball, the tossed ball leaves the official’s hand(s). b. On a throw-in, it is at the disposal of the thrower. c. On a free throw, it is at the disposal of the free thrower.

But I'm not quite sure that crosscountry55's interesting interpretation matches the definition of a player.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

4-34-1: Players/ Bench Personnel/ Substitutes/ Team Members: A player is one of five team members who are legally on the court at any given time, except intermission.

Also not sure that something that happens "before" the game can be considered to be an inter-mission.

Inter - Word-forming element used freely in English, "between, among, during," from Latin inter "among, between, betwixt, in the midst of" (also used extensively as a prefix).

Simply put, five players are on the court, bench personnel are on the bench.

Of course, it's much more complicated than that, especially when it comes to indirect technical fouls (the theme of this thread), but it's a good starting point

[Raymond]

Pre-game T occurs during warm-ups.

After introductions we are lining up for Team A's Technical free throws. Prior to ball being put at disposal of shooter, B1 on the court yells out, "No cap, this is some B**S**t.

Player or Bench personnel?

[Scrapper1]

How can you be a player in a game that hasn't started yet?

[Raymond]

Where is BillyMac when we need a Devil's Advocate?

At what point do we determine a player not listed as a starter is illegally on the court?

At what point is it too late for that?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

At what point do we determine a player not listed as a starter is illegally on the court? At what point is it too late for that?

Another great question, one that I've often pondered, but thought too "officious" to actually put any great thought into.

My opinion: When ten "players" are gathering on the court to prepare for the jump ball.

Another related followup question:

When is it too late to penalize? After toss? After tap? After first possession? At first dead ball? After first dead ball? At first clock stoppage? After first clock stoppage? Before first substitution for said illegal starter? After first substitution for said illegal starter? End of officials' jurisdiction?

10-1-2 Administrative Technical: A team must not: Change a designated starter unless necessitated as in 3-2-2a (necessitated by illness, injury, illegal equipment or apparel, etc., or to attempt a technical foul free throw). Penalty: Two free throws plus the ball for a division-line throw-in.

Oddly, I can't find any time limit (statute of limitations) cited.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

At what point do we determine a player not listed as a starter is illegally on the court? At what point is it too late for that?

3.2.2 SITUATION E: Team A designates No. 32 as a starter by the 10-minute time frame prior to the game. In (a), as the teams take the floor for the opening jump ball, the scorer recognizes that No. 34 is on court instead of No. 32 for Team A and notifies the officials. In (b), following about two minutes of play in the first quarter, a time-out is called. The scorer notifies the officials that although Team A No. 32 was a designated starter, No. 34 started instead and is still in the game. RULING: In (a), if Team A’s coach replaces No. 34 for the correct designated starter, No. 32, no penalty is assessed. If Team A’s coach elects to start the game with No. 34 instead of No. 32, a technical foul is assessed to Team A for changing a designated starter. In (b), no penalty is assessed. The infraction had to be discovered and penalized before the ball became live to start the game. Once the ball became live, it was too late to penalize for this specific infraction. (3-2-2a; 10-1-2a Penalty)

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

3.2.2 SITUATION E: Team A designates No. 32 as a starter by the 10-minute time frame prior to the game. In (a), as the teams take the floor for the opening jump ball, the scorer recognizes that No. 34 is on court instead of No. 32 for Team A and notifies the officials. In (b), following about two minutes of play in the first quarter, a time-out is called. The scorer notifies the officials that although Team A No. 32 was a designated starter, No. 34 started instead and is still in the game. RULING: In (a), if Team A’s coach replaces No. 34 for the correct designated starter, No. 32, no penalty is assessed. If Team A’s coach elects to start the game with No. 34 instead of No. 32, a technical foul is assessed to Team A for changing a designated starter. In (b), no penalty is assessed. The infraction had to be discovered and penalized before the ball became live to start the game. Once the ball became live, it was too late to penalize for this specific infraction. (3-2-2a; 10-1-2a Penalty)

This lends to my thought that there are no "players" until the ball is live to start the game.

Though, good luck explaining to both coaches why they have to sit all game when two opponents on the court shove each other prior to the opening jump ball.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

How can you be a player in a game that hasn't started yet?

The same as one can have a sound when a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody there to hear it?

When they're one of ten "players" who have legally stepped onto the court?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

At what point do we determine a player not listed as a starter is illegally on the court? At what point is it too late for that?

Brings to mind one of the most unsporting events of my life.

I was a fourteen year old playing Babe Ruth baseball. I was on a really terrible team (with me as a terrible player), with no wins at that point in the season (finished season 0-15). We were terrible because we had no true pitchers. Our #1 pitcher was our starting shortstop, not overpowering, but didn't walk a lot of batters. Our #2 pitcher was our starting third baseman, the son of the team sponsor, great moving fastball (as I discovered as the first baseman catching his throws from third base), but absolutely no control, tons of walks, and hit batsmen. No designated #3 pitcher, we just pitched anyone with a pulse.

That night we were playing another terrible team, also with no wins at that point in the season. We were the home team and pitched first. The opposing coach watched as our #1 pitcher warmed up. Then the game started. Our #1 pitcher threw his first pitch.

Opposing coach calls timeout and bounces out of his dugout. Tells the umpire that our #1 pitcher isn't eligible to pitch that night (my coach was unaware his eligibility status that night) due to some limitation rule on pitchers (something about limited appearances in a time period and required days of rest between pitching). The entire situation was complicated by a few suspended partial game rainouts previous to our game.

Game's over. Forfeit. We all pick up our gloves and go home.

The opposing coach watched as our #1 pitcher warmed up, he had our lineup card in his hand, he knew that our #1 pitcher wasn't eligible to pitch that night, and yet he waited for that first pitch instead of saying something pregame to our coach or the umpire.

But he got his win. That's all that counted to him. Not that thirty kids didn't get to play baseball that night.

Still pisses me off to this day, fifty-five years later.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Pre-game T occurs during warm-ups After introductions we are lining up for Team A's Technical free throws. Prior to ball being put at disposal of shooter, B1 on the court yells out, "No cap, this is some B**S**t. Player or Bench personnel?

Great question. If one really wants to test a rule interpretation, just cite an extreme example.

I'm not even certain if the other nine "players" are mandated to be on the court (lined up on the division line as many, incorrectly, think that they have to do), or if they're allowed to be with teammates in the bench area, some possibly sitting on the bench?

If sitting on the bench, would those starters on the bench have to sit behind the free throw line extended while watching the free throws?

Will we, as officials, tell the other nine "players" to get out of the bench area (and possibly off the bench) and "out onto the court" before we administer the free throws?

My opinion: Once that free throw shooter, before disposal, steps onto the court to shoot free throws, he, his teammates (listed starters), and opponents (listed starters) are all players.

We can't have one "player", the free throw shooter, with everybody else being bench personnel.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

4-34-1: Players/ Bench Personnel/ Substitutes/ Team Members: A player is one of five team members who are legally on the court at any given time, except intermission.