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Old Wed Jan 18, 2023, 10:58am
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DQ Player

A1 has been charged with 5 fouls and is disqualified. Coach is notified and A1 takes a seat. 2 minutes later A1 reports to the scorers table and is beckoned on the floor. Direct technical foul to coach for allowing a disqualified player to participate.

Don't allow the player to enter?
Beckon player even though you know they are disqualified? and give technical?
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Old Wed Jan 18, 2023, 11:02am
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Preventative Officiating ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valley Man View Post
Don't allow the player to enter? Beckon player even though you know they are disqualified? and give technical?
No need for "Gotcha Perry Mason Moment" here. If he doesn't become a player, no penalty, send him back to the bench.

10-6-3: The head coach must not permit a team member to participate after being removed from the game for disqualification.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Wed Jan 18, 2023 at 12:25pm.
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Old Wed Jan 18, 2023, 12:24pm
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Nitpicking ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valley Man View Post
A1 has been charged with 5 fouls and is disqualified. Coach is notified ...
Nitpicking.

Be careful with rule language. A1 is "officially" disqualified only after the head coach is notified.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
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Old Wed Jan 18, 2023, 12:35pm
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If you realize that this was the fouled out player, stop it right there.

If you do not realize it at the time and they come into the game, they have given you little choice.

Peace
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Old Wed Jan 18, 2023, 03:19pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
If you do not realize it at the time and they come into the game, they have given you little choice.
This is the part where a sanctimonious forum member jumps in and states that officials should be omniscient and never let this happen.


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Old Wed Jan 18, 2023, 04:08pm
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Table Crew ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by crosscountry55 View Post
This is the part where a sanctimonious forum member jumps in and states that officials should be omniscient and never let this happen.
Sometimes we just have to depend on our table crew. If a disqualified player tries to enter the game, or if a player substituted for doesn't sit a tick, or if a team uses its allotted timeouts, I count on my table crew to inform me. I've got more urgent things to think about in a game. Sometimes I'll unilaterally catch these situations, but other times I won't. That's why the table crew gets paid big bucks.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
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Old Wed Jan 18, 2023, 04:35pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Sometimes we just have to depend on our table crew. If a disqualified player tries to enter the game, or if a player substituted for doesn't sit a tick, or if a team uses its allotted timeouts, I count on my table crew to inform me. I've got more urgent things to think about in a game. Sometimes I'll unilaterally catch these situations, but other times I won't. That's why the table crew gets paid big bucks.
What other urgent things are on your mind when subs are coming into the game? Unless we have a multitude of players fouling out, it shouldn't be too taxing on the brain to remember that a certain player fouled out.

One of my early mentors used to quiz us in camp during time-outs as to the information on the scoreboard (time/score/team fouls/possession). Also used to teach us to track the numbers of the players who subbed out so that WE would catch it if a player checked back in before time came off the clock.

She's the one who inspired me to utilize my brain to its fullest extent when officiating. She is now a D1/D2 NCAA-Women's conference supervisor.
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Last edited by Raymond; Wed Jan 18, 2023 at 05:25pm.
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Old Wed Jan 18, 2023, 04:58pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crosscountry55 View Post
This is the part where a sanctimonious forum member jumps in and states that officials should be omniscient and never let this happen.
If you never let it happen then you will not have to debate about the rule that would apply otherwise, now would you? Often rules situations are created by not doing the basics. Why are you putting the ball in play when your partner has their back turned to you and dealing with the table? Kind of basic.

Peace
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Old Wed Jan 18, 2023, 05:24pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
If you never let it happen then you will not have to debate about the rule that would apply otherwise, now would you? Often rules situations are created by not doing the basics. Why are you putting the ball in play when your partner has their back turned to you and dealing with the table? Kind of basic.

Peace
Early in my JuCo career I administered a free throw while my partner was still discussing something at the table. Our supervisor was there, and I'll just say, it's something that never happened to me again...LOL
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Old Wed Jan 18, 2023, 07:27pm
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Urgent Things ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
What other urgent things are on your mind when subs are coming into the game?
This:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
time/score/team fouls/possession.
Table officials are "officials". We should be allowed to use them for some duties to make our job a little easier.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
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Old Wed Jan 18, 2023, 10:33pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
This:


Table officials are "officials". We should be allowed to use them for some duties to make our job a little easier.
It was instilled in me early on to know what's going on. It not too hard to remember who fouled out. One the major reasons I had whatever success I had was because supervisors knew I was on top of everything. Joey Crawford calls it "running the game".

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Last edited by Raymond; Thu Jan 19, 2023 at 08:34am.
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Old Wed Jan 18, 2023, 11:16pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valley Man View Post
A1 has been charged with 5 fouls and is disqualified. Coach is notified and A1 takes a seat. 2 minutes later A1 reports to the scorers table and is beckoned on the floor. Direct technical foul to coach for allowing a disqualified player to participate.

Don't allow the player to enter?
Beckon player even though you know they are disqualified? and give technical?
If the coach was properly notified that A1 was disqualified, and A1 had been substituted for, I would remind the coach "Why is Number X at the table? He was disqualified" If the coach withdraws A1 before he is beckoned in, no issue. If A1 was actually beckoned in, then assess the technical foul.
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Old Thu Jan 19, 2023, 11:40am
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Misty Water-Colored Memories (Barbra Streisand, 1973) …

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
It was instilled in me early on to know what's going on.
Each official is different in regard to what they are easily able to remember and what they aren't easily able to remember. Different officials have different priorities based on one's ability to remember.

For example, one of my regular partners was able to remember (after introducing himself) the names of all at the table (timer, home scorer, and visitor scorer) and address them by name at halftime, or during unusual situations. "Matthew. Please get both teams and the officials with three minutes left in halftime". "Mark. Please hand me the jacket behind your seat". "Luke. Please let us know when either team has used all their allotted timeouts." Amazing!

Some officials have the ability to very accurately remember the status of the alternating possession arrow, without using any type of "crutch". Here in my little corner of Connecticut, from day one of rookie mechanics training we're taught to use the "extra whistle in pocket" routine, and doing otherwise is frowned upon, although a few guys successfully use the memory-only approach.

Some officials are able to very accurately know, without consulting the scorebook (we have only a few scoreboards that show individual fouls), how many fouls "star players" have.

As for me, after over twenty-five years of working a Catholic middle school games, and now, in the twilight of my career, a few years of working public school middle school games, middle schools that, for the most part, don't show team fouls on the scoreboard, and often with students at the table, I've developed a "Spidey-Sense" of knowing when to ask the table after reporting, "Team fouls?" (usual answers, six, seven, or ten), "Bonus?", "Double bonus?" to avoid correctable error (or noncorrectable error) situations.

Over forty-plus years, I don't recall any disqualified players trying to reenter any of my games (however, how would I know if it did happen, I don't purposely keep track, leaving it up to the table), but I have had about a half dozen occasions of players not "sitting a tick" trying to reenter too early (usually involving free throws, often for technical fouls, triggering my "Spidey-Sense"), with me unilaterally (no table involved) stopping them (however, how would I know if it did happen more times, I don't purposely keep track, leaving it up to the table).
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Jan 19, 2023 at 01:09pm.
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Old Fri Jan 20, 2023, 05:33pm
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Spidey Sense ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Each official is different in regard to what they are easily able to remember and what they aren't easily able to remember. Different officials have different priorities based on one's ability to remember.
While I don't purposely try remember the number of each team's timeouts, when a few timeouts have been requested and granted in the fourth period, my "Spidey Sense" will often kick in and I will stop by the table to remind the scorer to, "Please let us know when either team has used all their allotted timeouts".
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
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Old Sat Jan 21, 2023, 11:58am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
While I don't purposely try remember the number of each team's timeouts, when a few timeouts have been requested and granted in the fourth period, my "Spidey Sense" will often kick in and I will stop by the table to remind the scorer to, "Please let us know when either team has used all their allotted timeouts".
I'll stop at the table and ask both books to confirm the number of timeouts so if there is any discrepancy it is settled right then and there. That way I also know for a fact where we are with timeouts. And if somebody can't track timeouts for the last few minutes of a game after ascertaining that information, then maybe their concentration level is not sharp enough to referee high level basketball.

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Last edited by Raymond; Sat Jan 21, 2023 at 12:59pm.
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