Rush Onto The Court ...

[Raymond]

My post wasn't cryptic. You asked a question (I think, hard to tell sometimes) and I posed a questioned in return that should have led to you making a determination which rule applies to the situation posed in the initial post.

I constantly preach to the officials in my association that we need to actually think about why we make decisions on the court. Spoon-feeding answers stunts that growth.

I train to help handle situations properly on the court, not to pass a quiz/test.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

My post wasn't cryptic. You asked a question and I posed a questioned in return that should have led to you making a determination which rule applies to the situation posed in the initial post.

I actually enjoyed and was challenged by your "questioning" post. And I wasn't upset that you didn't just simply give an answer.

My answer was that officials often try to avoid having six players on the court, and except in rare cases where players "dash" off the bench, if six players are discovered during a live ball on the court immediately after a timeout, intermission, or substitution, officials often have themselves to blame by rushing the administration of inbounds play.

Was that the answer that you expected from me, because you never replied to confirm or deny?

Originally Posted by BillyMac

... how does one decide between a 10-5-2 Bench Technical or 10-2-2 Team Technical?

Originally Posted by Raymond

Hasn't the content and context of several responses already answered your question?

Originally Posted by Raymond

Put the 2 rules side-by-side. Then think back over your 40 years of officiating about which rule is something we as officials always try to prevent from being violated b/c we tend to blame ourselves when it happens.

If you accepted my answer, it implies that you support a 10-2-2 Team Technical penalty.

If you rejected my answer, that implies that you support a 10-5-2 Bench Technical penalty.

I already know that your don't support ilyazhito's 10-3 Substitute Technical penalty, and neither do I.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I actually enjoyed and was challenged by your "questioning" post. And I wasn't upset that you didn't just simply give an answer.

My answer was that officials often try to avoid having six players on the court, and except in rare cases where players "dash" off the bench, if six players are discovered during a live ball on the court immediately after a timeout, intermission, or substitution, officials often have themselves to blame by rushing the administration of inbounds play.

Was that the answer that you expected from me, because you never replied to confirm or deny?

...

And I'm not going to. Are bench personnel who spontaneously enter the court to celebrate a last second goal while the ball is still live:

A) participating illegally?

or

B) illegally on the court?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Are bench personnel who spontaneously enter the court to celebrate a last second goal while the ball is still live:
A) participating illegally?
B) illegally on the court?

Using your recent example of assistant coaches (bench personnel) doing such, I would say illegally on the court (players and coaches) thus it's the 10-5-2 Bench Technical penalty. Right?

Why did you lead me down another path?

Originally Posted by Raymond

Put the 2 rules side-by-side. Then think back over your 40 years of officiating about which rule is something we as officials always try to prevent from being violated b/c we tend to blame ourselves when it happens.

I've never really been worried about bench personnel who spontaneously and illegally enter the court to celebrate a last second goal while the ball is still live, and if it ever happened in my game I would never blame myself, nor blame my partner.

On the other hand if six players are discovered during a live ball on the court immediately after a timeout, intermission, or substitution, officials often have themselves to blame by rushing the administration of inbounds play.

Did I answer your question incorrectly, or did you change your mind about the rule citation and penalty?

Or am I totally confused?

If the NFHS answer is really 10-5-2 Bench Technical and not 10-2-2 Team Technical, as stated in the IAABO reference citation offered to study group members, then IAABO may have an answer sheet problem and leave itself open for complaints and be forced to offer a correction.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Using your recent example of assistant coaches (bench personnel) doing such, I would say illegally on the court (players and coaches) thus it's the 10-5-2 Bench Technical penalty. Right?

Why did you lead me down another path?



I've never really been worried about bench personnel who spontaneously and illegally enter the court to celebrate a last second goal while the ball is still live, and if it ever happened in my game I would never blame myself, nor blame my partner.

On the other hand if six players are discovered during a live ball on the court immediately after a timeout, intermission, or substitution, officials often have themselves to blame by rushing the administration of inbounds play.

Did I answer your question incorrectly, or did you change your mind about the rule citation and penalty?

...

I never gave an answer. You were/are struggling with the differences about participating illegally and bench personnel entering the court illegally.

I'm just providing a thought process to use when actually officiating a game where you have to make a decision.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I'm just providing a thought process to use when actually officiating a game where you have to make a decision.

In the heat of the game I would have probably incorrectly (before this thread) gone with extra players on the court, but as an exam question I'm leaning toward bench personnel entering the court (based on Raymond's post about assistant coaches).

Not sure what IAABO wants us to do with this. I'll let everybody know when I get the answer sheet. As I've already stated, the IAABO reference citation for this question is 10-2-2 Team Technical.

Still not sure how I want to answer this, as I think that they want me to answer, or the right answer, and possibly fight "city hall" later.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

In the heat of the game I would have probably gone with extra players on the court, but as an exam question I'm leaning toward bench personnel entering the court (based on Raymond's post about assistant coaches).

Not sure what IAABO wants us to do with this. I'll let everybody know when I get the answer sheet. As I've already stated, the IAABO reference citation for this question is 10-2-2 Team Technical.

Still not sure how I want to answer this, as I think that they want me to answer, or the right answer, and possibly fight "city hall" later.

You answer it correctly and then bring it up with the appropriate organization. I've done it a few times with the NCAA-Men's test. I (along w/others) have also challenged a couple of their interpretations which have subsequently been corrected.

I'm more concerned with proper interpretation so plays are handled correctly on the court. You often seem more concerned with getting points on a test.