The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #76 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 29, 2022, 05:01pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Rockville,MD
Posts: 1,059
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
You can pull out the video all you want but when you have many officials that like the game the old way and choose to call it the old way regardless of what is being asked, there isn't all that much you can do when you don't have the numbers to just not use them.
Playoffs are the big carrot one can use with high school officials. If you can observe officials and give the ones who consistently enforce freedom of movement playoff assignments, the rest will get the message.

On a different note, I can't wait to see how different states will apply the new shot clock guidance by NFHS. In my area, DC has used a non-visible count, but MD had a visible count, even when the shot clock was added for boys basketball for the 2017-18 season. Girls still do not have a 10-second count in MD public school games.
Reply With Quote
  #77 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 29, 2022, 05:03pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,938
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Hey. I'm one of those old guys, but I (and my interpreter, and my assigner (also old)) subscribe to 10-7-12 as written, while still using 4-27 for almost all other types of fouls, while also knowing that single, momentary "hot stove" touch with one hand is legal. However, I will admit that I will occasionally give a, "Hands off", warning early in the game before calling my first 10-7-12 handchecking "touch" foul. Old habits die hard.
Talking players out of handchecks early in the game is supported by all my college supervisors. But it better be followed up with a whistle if not heeded. At the HS level too often those "warnings" don't get listened to by defenders yet the same officials who give those warnings won't blow the whistle.
Reply With Quote
  #78 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 29, 2022, 05:17pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 21,967
Oral Warning ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
Talking players out of handchecks early in the game is supported by all my college supervisors. But it better be followed up with a whistle if not heeded. At the HS level too often those "warnings" don't get listened to by defenders yet the same officials who give those warnings won't blow the whistle.
For me, if I warn, a big if, it's almost always one oral warning per team, per game, and oral warnings seldom, if ever, go past the first period. I've got a whistle, and I know how to use it.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
Reply With Quote
  #79 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 29, 2022, 05:40pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 30,195
Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
Completely agree. And at the HS level, absent taking away postseason assignments there really is not much you can do about the old guys who still subscribe to the old way of thinking.
How many of our games are reviewed by the state or association? I doubt there are many games reviewed independently to know if we are doing things correct. Unless you have someone come out and they see you are not doing things a certain way. I think that is a stretch.

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #80 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 29, 2022, 05:43pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 30,195
Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
Talking players out of handchecks early in the game is supported by all my college supervisors. But it better be followed up with a whistle if not heeded. At the HS level too often those "warnings" don't get listened to by defenders yet the same officials who give those warnings won't blow the whistle.
When this rule came in place, I would and still do say "hands, hands, hands" even if the player never touches the ball handler. I say this because at least they know I am watching. I have yet to have a single coach say something to me about doing that or even if they hear me in the first place. But when I do that they often pull their hands back or never touch the ball handler, so it is not something that really has to be called that much. But when they do, I use my judgment and often call fouls on handchecking without much debate from any coaches. It is usually a certain coach or team that seems to not understand the rules that have to take a few fouls to get the message. Most of the time coaches say right after a handchecking foul and sometimes before, "Show your hands."

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #81 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 29, 2022, 06:29pm
Courageous When Prudent
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Posts: 14,515
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
How many of our games are reviewed by the state or association? I doubt there are many games reviewed independently to know if we are doing things correct. Unless you have someone come out and they see you are not doing things a certain way. I think that is a stretch.



Peace
That's why I'm going to be performing that duty for my association this season. I'll go to games and I'll also watch whatever I can find online.

But I will not be trying to advise veteran officials things I may have done differently. But I will openly give advice or "things to think about" to newer and younger officials. And I will pass on my favorable impressions to my commissioner.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
__________________
A-hole formerly known as BNR
Reply With Quote
  #82 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 29, 2022, 07:13pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 12,209
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
It is not about an old way of thinking. There are officials that have been officiating after this rule was added, changed or written into the rulebooks. Again, if all you do is put this rule out there and give no context, we will have this as an issue. Again, I am old school enough to know the difference. And I know when to call this because I have been trained on it with video. Just like recognizing flops based on the numerous videos and breakdown of videos to spot them and officiating accordingly. IJS.

Peace
Isn't about how long someone has been officiating, it is just the old way of thinking about what the game should be. They may have that idea from when they played, or just like the idea of no blood, no foul.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com
Reply With Quote
  #83 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 30, 2022, 09:15am
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 21,967
Back In the Day ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
They may have that idea from when they played ...
This, along with differences between NFHS, NCAA, and NBA rule sets, is the main purpose of my Most Misunderstood Basketball Rules list.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
Reply With Quote
  #84 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 30, 2022, 09:19am
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 21,967
Don't Ask, Don't Tell ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
But I will openly give advice or "things to think about" to newer and younger officials.
Even after forty-plus years, when we get to the locker room after a game I always ask my partner, "So did you see anything that could improve my game?".
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
Reply With Quote
  #85 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 30, 2022, 09:38am
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 21,967
Chutes and Ladders ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
That's why I'm going to be performing that duty for my association this season. I'll go to games and I'll also watch whatever I can find online.
Thank you for your service.

We have an Observation and Mobility Team of about two dozen members. They have all been active on our rule and mechanics training committees, and all are veteran post season experienced officials.

They try to see every official (270 members) on our local board, as partners, or by showing up early and observing junior varsity games. If they have to make more than just a few non-working trips to observe, they don't have to pay annual board dues. Our assistant assignment commissioner is in charge of scheduling these observations.

Those who are observed by members of this Observation and Mobility Team are encouraged to ask team members for constructive criticism at the site.

The Observation and Mobility Team annually meets with our assignment commissioner and assistant commissioner. Determinations are made regarding next year's assignments - all varsity games, all subvarsity games, or an in between "probationary" designation (both varsity games and subvarsity games) for those on their way up the ladder, or on their way down the ladder.

Only the Pope, and Supreme Court justices, are "varsity for life".
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Jun 30, 2022 at 09:48am.
Reply With Quote
  #86 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 30, 2022, 02:15pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 30,195
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
Isn't about how long someone has been officiating, it is just the old way of thinking about what the game should be. They may have that idea from when they played, or just like the idea of no blood, no foul.
But that is not what I am saying. I am not saying allow anything to take place. But in the literature, they said RSBQ is the standard to call these if they are not obvious at least from my state. But again video would help remedy this but that would make too much sense.

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #87 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 30, 2022, 07:54pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 12,209
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
But that is not what I am saying. I am not saying allow anything to take place. But in the literature, they said RSBQ is the standard to call these if they are not obvious at least from my state. But again video would help remedy this but that would make too much sense.

Peace
When the rules were changed, the NFHS said RSBQ is no longer the criteria because after years of trying to get people to recognize that RSBQ was actually impacted too many officials were still denying that it was and were not calling the fouls. So, they changed the rules to absolutes based not on RSBQ but observable facts....2 hands = foul, a hand that remains on = foul, multiple touches = foul, etc. RSBQ was no longer to be a factor. Why? Because they have defined those actions to be, by definition, an advantage to the defense even if it doesn't appear to many officials to affect RSBQ.

Some people will still fall back to RSBQ because they don't want to follow the NFHS but the NFHS has clearly indicated they want those fouls called. You don't have to listen to them if your state doesn't want to but that is your state doing its own thing.

Consider this....if putting a hand on the offensive player isn't an advantage to the defender, why would a defender keep doing it as long as you don't call a foul? The do it because it helps then play defense through an illegal advantage gained by the contact.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com
Reply With Quote
  #88 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jul 01, 2022, 09:01am
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 21,967
Go Your Own Way (Fleetwood Mac, 1977) ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
... at least from my state.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
Some people will still fall back to RSBQ because they don't want to follow the NFHS but the NFHS has clearly indicated they want those fouls called. You don't have to listen to them if your state doesn't want to but that is your state doing its own thing.
Like a lot of things in basketball officiating, it all comes down to what one's state association, local association, interpreters (clinicians, trainers), and assignment commissioners choose to enforce.

When in Rome ...

Even then, there are some grizzled veterans that go their own way.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Jul 01, 2022 at 01:19pm.
Reply With Quote
  #89 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jul 01, 2022, 09:03am
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 30,195
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
When the rules were changed, the NFHS said RSBQ is no longer the criteria because after years of trying to get people to recognize that RSBQ was actually impacted too many officials were still denying that it was and were not calling the fouls. So, they changed the rules to absolutes based not on RSBQ but observable facts....2 hands = foul, a hand that remains on = foul, multiple touches = foul, etc. RSBQ was no longer to be a factor. Why? Because they have defined those actions to be, by definition, an advantage to the defense even if it doesn't appear to many officials to affect RSBQ.
States come up with their interpretations correct? That is a state interpretation that I am referencing. Not saying something that is not the state and that was specifically used when the rule was put in place and has been used since. I would not be surprised if that was mentioned again since I believe a POE is handchecking. Just like the "hot stove" application, that came from our state office directly. You might not know this, but when they put out the PowerPoint, our state adds or puts in wording to address issues they wish or give interpretations. That did not change here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
Some people will still fall back to RSBQ because they don't want to follow the NFHS but the NFHS has clearly indicated they want those fouls called. You don't have to listen to them if your state doesn't want to but that is your state doing its own thing.
Did not fall back into anything, giving you the original interpretation that was provide by the IHSA Administrators. And it did not say those things did not apply, but RSBQ is to be used (and the first time I can remember them even using this for any foul BTW) as a way to judge when these things happen. Still, the rules does not mean you do not have to judge when these things actually happen, because the wording is "placing" which is very specific. The word "touching" is not used because players do touch other players with their hands and arms and are not "placing" their hands on the opponent. Your hands often cannot go anywhere if someone comes into your body. We are not expecting players to put their hands completely behind their back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
Consider this....if putting a hand on the offensive player isn't an advantage to the defender, why would a defender keep doing it as long as you don't call a foul? The do it because it helps then play defense through an illegal advantage gained by the contact.
I am going to say this again. I do not officiate in a bubble. The NF is not an entirely different place than where I officiate other-level basketball. I do the basic things that I do at the college level when it comes to judgment and philosophies with rules. I call more handchecking fouls than most of my only high school officiating counterparts. And all those things I mentioned I think about when calling a foul.

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
2022 NFHS Basketball Rules Questionnaire ... BillyMac Basketball 7 Sat Feb 19, 2022 12:05pm
The Most Misunderstood NFHS Basketball Rules ... BillyMac Basketball 79 Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:01pm
New Rules 2021-2022 Announced JRutledge Basketball 57 Mon May 24, 2021 10:42am
2020 NFHS Basketball Rules Questionnaire ... BillyMac Basketball 7 Mon Feb 17, 2020 04:37pm
NFHS Basketball Rules Committee tjones1 Basketball 49 Wed Apr 25, 2007 09:31pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:24pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1