Incorrectly charged technical foul

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by FlasherZ

To me, the rules are clear, and it feels more like a clerical error than anything else. Coach should have known that the pre-game dunk affects his player. So, advise the coach his player is done for the day and move on.

A few weeks ago for me: different situation, but same type of concern with a pissed-off coach. I was working table of my son's junior high game as official scorer, and I had a student next to me running the scoreboard. During the 4th quarter, a technical foul was assessed directly to head coach of the visitors for constantly running his mouth. I recorded it in the book correctly, and had told the student that he needed to add the tech to the team fouls on the board, but he either did not hear me or did not ask for clarification.

A minute or so later, down to a minute to go and visitors are down by 3. During dead ball period, coach calls timeout to strategize with the team. Scoreboard shows 5 fouls for his team, so he thinks he has a foul to use without free throws. During the timeout, I compare book to board and tell the student to add a team foul because we're at 6 for them. Ball is put at disposal of home team, who inbounds, and immediate visitor foul. I signal 1-and-1 to the reporting official who looks bewildered, looks up at the scoreboard, and comes over to discuss (because he also thought we were at 5), where I explain that the TF hadn't been recorded on the board as a team foul. He nodded in understanding, signaled the bonus to his partner, and they set up for the FT. Meanwhile, visitor head coach is apoplectic, saying that he thought he had the foul to give and "would have never told [his player] to foul on the inbound had it been reflected correctly" (which we all know is a complete lie, but hey, no harm in trying). He then made some snide comments about table causing him to lose the game. Coach's fault he didn't talk to his own scorekeeper, sitting next to him.

Turns out they lost by 1... because the home team made both TF FT's.

This should have been cleared up with the crew chief as soon as you noticed there was a discrepancy.

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[Mike Goodwin]

Originally Posted by Raymond

This should have been cleared up with the crew chief as soon as you noticed there was a discrepancy.

Are we doing the same in this scenario?

First quarter: B2 breaks the plane of the end line and fouls thrower A1. Calling official properly rules an intentional personal foul on B1 but misapplies the rule by neglecting to have the scorekeeper record a delay-of-game warning as in 9-2-10.

Late in the fourth quarter, B3 breaks the plane of the sideline during a Team A throw-in. Administering official rules a warning for delay on Team B and reports it to the scorer.

One of the crew then remembers the IPF from the first quarter and they confer with the scorer who indicates no one reported the delay in the first quarter.

= = =

If this is handled the same way as a pre-game dunk in the OP, then the second instance of breaking the plane will result in a Team Technical Foul as in 10-2-1c without prior notice to the Team B head coach.

I still maintain that if the crew misapplies a rule, there is a point when it becomes too late to penalize.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Mike Goodwin

Are we doing the same in this scenario?



First quarter: B2 breaks the plane of the end line and fouls thrower A1. Calling official properly rules an intentional personal foul on B1 but misapplies the rule by neglecting to have the scorekeeper record a delay-of-game warning as in 9-2-10.



Late in the fourth quarter, B3 breaks the plane of the sideline during a Team A throw-in. Administering official rules a warning for delay on Team B and reports it to the scorer.



One of the crew then remembers the IPF from the first quarter and they confer with the scorer who indicates no one reported the delay in the first quarter.



= = =



If this is handled the same way as a pre-game dunk in the OP, then the second instance of breaking the plane will result in a Team Technical Foul as in 10-2-1c without prior notice to the Team B head coach.



I still maintain that if the crew misapplies a rule, there is a point when it becomes too late to penalize.

Did the timer at some point notice that the scorer did not record a delay of game warning and asked them about it? If so, yes they should get with the crew chief at some point.

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[Mike Goodwin]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Did the timer at some point notice that the scorer did not record a delay of game warning and asked them about it? If so, yes they should get with the crew chief at some point.

I hope it's different where you are, Ray, but I could almost bet that 10 of 10 timers & scorekeepers I've had on my crew wouldn't know anything about assessing a delay warning along with the IPF unless an official specifically said so.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Mike Goodwin

I hope it's different where you are, Ray, but I could almost bet that 10 of 10 that timers & scorekeepers I've had on my crew wouldn't know anything about assessing a delay warning along with the IPF unless an official specifically said so.

I'm going by FlasherZ's situation. He should have at some point brought it up to the on-court crew.

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[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I'm going by FlasherZ's situation. He should have at some point brought it up to the on-court crew.

This is a great take-away. More table officials should have the courage to share information with floor officials. Many of them feel that they don’t have the authority to do so. As floor officials, we can help with this by ingratiating ourselves with the table personnel before the game. It’s important for them to feel empowered as members of the crew. True, floor officials always get the final say, but I’ll never turn down helpful information.


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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

As floor officials, we can help with this by ingratiating ourselves with the table personnel before the game.

Had a great, veteran partner who, as the referee, when checking the scorebook pregame, would always introduce himself and learn the names of the timer, home scorekeeper, and visitor scorekeeper, and address them by name throughout the game.

On the other hand ...

BillyMac: "Hey fella. Put your damn cell phone away."

BillyMac: "Hey pal. Look up at me when I report fouls".

BillyMac: "Hey buddy. How many team fouls?".

Now, where are my reading glasses?

[FlasherZ]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I'm going by FlasherZ's situation. He should have at some point brought it up to the on-court crew.

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

This is a great take-away. More table officials should have the courage to share information with floor officials.

We're digressing from the original point of the post, but I'd like to address this.

Yes, I could have stopped the inbounds to have an official come over to notify him. However, the official scorer was correct, the two officials were opposite side (nowhere near the table), we had a student volunteer scoreboard operator without a lot of expertise, and coaches are told to know their situation and not rely upon the scoreboard for anything but time and the score (especially in junior high games). So among all the other things going on, it didn't rank in priority to call over the officials to note that we corrected the team fouls on the scoreboard.

It's a junior high school game with 2-man court crew, student timer, and unpaid father as a scorekeeper. I have the courage to share information with the floor officials, because I believe what crosscountry wrote, above, but there are many times I've gotten the holier-than-thou attitude from game officials. At halftime of one game this year, "DON'T SWITCH THE ARROW UNTIL I'VE TOLD YOU TO!!!" was literally yelled at me after I noted that I had already switched it (and we keep the backup arrow on the scoreboard as well, which isn't subject to switching at halftime).

In fact, many of those officials don't even know that I have done my share of officiating games. The ones that do, know that they have a third man sitting at the table to help them out and we get along really well. Others feel like they have to "own the show". Those that consider the table crew partners are good officials... there are too many that do not consider them partners.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mike Goodwin

I still maintain that if the crew misapplies a rule, there is a point when it becomes too late to penalize.

What is that point?

Originally Posted by BillyMac

What if this was "discovered" two minutes into the first period? Too late?

What if nobody was going to be immediately disqualified?

Originally Posted by BillyMac

For the first half, A4 is neither charged with any additional technical fouls nor any personal fouls.