Incorrectly charged technical foul

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

Good play callers, but probably haven’t read through the books in years.

Originally Posted by Raymond

What bothers me is if people who do not study the rules dispense rules knowledge to newer officials.

Forty years ago, when I started officiating, a premium was put on "play calling" and "game management", even at the expense of rules knowledge, mechanics, and signals. They got assigned the best games, and the tournament games, even if they occasionally, or often, kicked an "odd" situation rule (correctable error, false double foul, etc.).

We learned a lot from them about "play calling" and "game management", and I thank them for that, but most of us knew, in the back of our minds, that these guys (and they were all guys back then) had limitations and were about to become relics of past, and that we needed to learn "more" to progress in the modern game.

As time passed, the best games, and the tournament games, seemed to be more assigned to officials with the "whole package", or close to it. "Play calling" and "game management" are still very important, but now other things, like rules knowledge, are also valued.

[FlasherZ]

To me, the rules are clear, and it feels more like a clerical error than anything else. Coach should have known that the pre-game dunk affects his player. So, advise the coach his player is done for the day and move on.

A few weeks ago for me: different situation, but same type of concern with a pissed-off coach. I was working table of my son's junior high game as official scorer, and I had a student next to me running the scoreboard. During the 4th quarter, a technical foul was assessed directly to head coach of the visitors for constantly running his mouth. I recorded it in the book correctly, and had told the student that he needed to add the tech to the team fouls on the board, but he either did not hear me or did not ask for clarification.

A minute or so later, down to a minute to go and visitors are down by 3. During dead ball period, coach calls timeout to strategize with the team. Scoreboard shows 5 fouls for his team, so he thinks he has a foul to use without free throws. During the timeout, I compare book to board and tell the student to add a team foul because we're at 6 for them. Ball is put at disposal of home team, who inbounds, and immediate visitor foul. I signal 1-and-1 to the reporting official who looks bewildered, looks up at the scoreboard, and comes over to discuss (because he also thought we were at 5), where I explain that the TF hadn't been recorded on the board as a team foul. He nodded in understanding, signaled the bonus to his partner, and they set up for the FT. Meanwhile, visitor head coach is apoplectic, saying that he thought he had the foul to give and "would have never told [his player] to foul on the inbound had it been reflected correctly" (which we all know is a complete lie, but hey, no harm in trying). He then made some snide comments about table causing him to lose the game. Coach's fault he didn't talk to his own scorekeeper, sitting next to him.

Turns out they lost by 1... because the home team made both TF FT's.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by FlasherZ

During the 4th quarter, a technical foul was assessed directly to head coach ... I recorded it in the book correctly, and had told the student that he needed to add the tech to the team fouls on the board, but he either did not hear me or did not ask for clarification ...

Nice post FlasherZ. Welcome to the Forum.

Failing to add technical fouls to the team total, either in the scorebook and/or on the scoreboard, is a very common occurrence in subvarsity games, especially middle school games (and occasionally varsity games). And when notified, officials don't ignore the mistake, we fix it, and shoot free throws.

One and one, or no one and one, is impactful, but not quite as impactful as losing a player (who can dunk) for a half, but there are still similarities in these two situations. Not a correctable error, no statute of limitations, so we can fix it (seemingly contrary to it not being a correctable error), even if we have to deal with slings and arrows (and profane language) from a coach.

Take it out of context. A4 is penalized for a pregame dunk. Later A4 charged with a technical foul for an unsporting verbal confrontation with an opponent. By rule, where does A4 belong? Answer: A4 belongs (disqualified) on the bench.

Yes, there are complicating factors, but the bottom line is that A4, by rule, belongs (disqualified) on the bench.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by FlasherZ

To me, the rules are clear, and it feels more like a clerical error than anything else. Coach should have known that the pre-game dunk affects his player. So, advise the coach his player is done for the day and move on.

A few weeks ago for me: different situation, but same type of concern with a pissed-off coach. I was working table of my son's junior high game as official scorer, and I had a student next to me running the scoreboard. During the 4th quarter, a technical foul was assessed directly to head coach of the visitors for constantly running his mouth. I recorded it in the book correctly, and had told the student that he needed to add the tech to the team fouls on the board, but he either did not hear me or did not ask for clarification.

A minute or so later, down to a minute to go and visitors are down by 3. During dead ball period, coach calls timeout to strategize with the team. Scoreboard shows 5 fouls for his team, so he thinks he has a foul to use without free throws. During the timeout, I compare book to board and tell the student to add a team foul because we're at 6 for them. Ball is put at disposal of home team, who inbounds, and immediate visitor foul. I signal 1-and-1 to the reporting official who looks bewildered, looks up at the scoreboard, and comes over to discuss (because he also thought we were at 5), where I explain that the TF hadn't been recorded on the board as a team foul. He nodded in understanding, signaled the bonus to his partner, and they set up for the FT. Meanwhile, visitor head coach is apoplectic, saying that he thought he had the foul to give and "would have never told [his player] to foul on the inbound had it been reflected correctly" (which we all know is a complete lie, but hey, no harm in trying). He then made some snide comments about table causing him to lose the game. Coach's fault he didn't talk to his own scorekeeper, sitting next to him.

Turns out they lost by 1... because the home team made both TF FT's.

This should have been cleared up with the crew chief as soon as you noticed there was a discrepancy.

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[Mike Goodwin]

Originally Posted by Raymond

This should have been cleared up with the crew chief as soon as you noticed there was a discrepancy.

Are we doing the same in this scenario?

First quarter: B2 breaks the plane of the end line and fouls thrower A1. Calling official properly rules an intentional personal foul on B1 but misapplies the rule by neglecting to have the scorekeeper record a delay-of-game warning as in 9-2-10.

Late in the fourth quarter, B3 breaks the plane of the sideline during a Team A throw-in. Administering official rules a warning for delay on Team B and reports it to the scorer.

One of the crew then remembers the IPF from the first quarter and they confer with the scorer who indicates no one reported the delay in the first quarter.

= = =

If this is handled the same way as a pre-game dunk in the OP, then the second instance of breaking the plane will result in a Team Technical Foul as in 10-2-1c without prior notice to the Team B head coach.

I still maintain that if the crew misapplies a rule, there is a point when it becomes too late to penalize.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Mike Goodwin

Are we doing the same in this scenario?



First quarter: B2 breaks the plane of the end line and fouls thrower A1. Calling official properly rules an intentional personal foul on B1 but misapplies the rule by neglecting to have the scorekeeper record a delay-of-game warning as in 9-2-10.



Late in the fourth quarter, B3 breaks the plane of the sideline during a Team A throw-in. Administering official rules a warning for delay on Team B and reports it to the scorer.



One of the crew then remembers the IPF from the first quarter and they confer with the scorer who indicates no one reported the delay in the first quarter.



= = =



If this is handled the same way as a pre-game dunk in the OP, then the second instance of breaking the plane will result in a Team Technical Foul as in 10-2-1c without prior notice to the Team B head coach.



I still maintain that if the crew misapplies a rule, there is a point when it becomes too late to penalize.

Did the timer at some point notice that the scorer did not record a delay of game warning and asked them about it? If so, yes they should get with the crew chief at some point.

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[Mike Goodwin]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Did the timer at some point notice that the scorer did not record a delay of game warning and asked them about it? If so, yes they should get with the crew chief at some point.

I hope it's different where you are, Ray, but I could almost bet that 10 of 10 timers & scorekeepers I've had on my crew wouldn't know anything about assessing a delay warning along with the IPF unless an official specifically said so.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Mike Goodwin

I hope it's different where you are, Ray, but I could almost bet that 10 of 10 that timers & scorekeepers I've had on my crew wouldn't know anything about assessing a delay warning along with the IPF unless an official specifically said so.

I'm going by FlasherZ's situation. He should have at some point brought it up to the on-court crew.

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mike Goodwin

I still maintain that if the crew misapplies a rule, there is a point when it becomes too late to penalize.

What is that point?

Originally Posted by BillyMac

What if this was "discovered" two minutes into the first period? Too late?

What if nobody was going to be immediately disqualified?

Originally Posted by BillyMac

For the first half, A4 is neither charged with any additional technical fouls nor any personal fouls.