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Old Mon Jan 24, 2022, 12:52pm
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Held ball, followed by timeout

I was watching a 7th grade game from the stands a couple weeks ago. Held ball under H's basket. Arrow points other way. V-Coach calls full timeout. I thought to myself at the time..."They are going to forget to switch the arrow."

Teams come out of timeout. I don't recall if T told the player "spot" or gave him the finger wagging to signal he could run the endline or did nothing to indicate either. But, V5 took the ball from the official, V13 runs from the foul line to the other end of the end line, OOB, and receives the pass. And proceeds to throw a baseball pass down the floor for an easy layup. As I predicted, the arrow never got changed and V got the next AP too.

I often see officials signaling to each other at the beginning and end of a timeout if a throw-in should be a spot or "running," so I'm not terribly interested about that aspect. It was a 7th grade game, and those officials are either learning what they should be doing or are past the point where they will ever learn.

I am curious if you have any suggestions on how to catch the AP arrow in that situation. I know some carry an extra whistle. Do you swap it at the time you call the held ball, even before the throw-in? That would have caught this one. But, then, what do you do when you have a TF or something weird coming out of that timeout? You've already changed your "personal arrow" when you shouldn't have. Are you relying on yourself to put the whistle back in the other pocket if that throw-in never completes?
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Old Mon Jan 24, 2022, 12:54pm
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Another question...would you suggest reminding the table coming out of the timeout that it's an AP throw-in and the arrow needs switched?
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Old Mon Jan 24, 2022, 01:14pm
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During/after a time-out, I remind my partners and the table that we will be having an AP throw-in.

If we have something that precludes the AP throw-in, I inform the table we will not be switching the arrow after the throw-in.

Should be basic communications practices that are passed down through training.
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Old Mon Jan 24, 2022, 01:18pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altor View Post
...

I am curious if you have any suggestions on how to catch the AP arrow in that situation. I know some carry an extra whistle. Do you swap it at the time you call the held ball, even before the throw-in? That would have caught this one. But, then, what do you do when you have a TF or something weird coming out of that timeout? You've already changed your "personal arrow" when you shouldn't have. Are you relying on yourself to put the whistle back in the other pocket if that throw-in never completes?
If someone is going to use a whistle or whatever (I don't) in their pocket, I would hope they switch it when it is supposed to be legally switched. During otherwise is just going to add to the confusion.
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Old Mon Jan 24, 2022, 02:12pm
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Consistent ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Altor View Post
I know some carry an extra whistle. Do you swap it at the time you call the held ball, even before the throw-in?
For those of us that carry an extra whistle and use it for held ball/quarter situations, there are different techniques. The most important thing is for such an official to remain consistent with his technique and to have it become a regular habit, an almost unconscious habit.

I swap mine before (not the legally correct time, I've already got enough to do immediately after the throwin) the held ball alternating possession throwin (and at the end of the first half). Obviously, my extra whistle technique wouldn't help me if something weird (technical foul, kick, etc.) happened between my swap and the alternating possession throwin, leaving it up to my game awareness and hopefully good communication with my partner and the table.

If a timeout is called after I've already swapped my whistle, but before the throwin, I hold the ball in such a manner (right, left, lane side, not lane side) to remind me of what type of throwin and which way we're going. I also visually communicate such to my partner during the timeout.

Repetition, consistency, and redundancy are the keys.

Without good game awareness and good communication, "tricks" are just "crutches", and may not be infallible.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Jan 25, 2022 at 11:13am.
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Old Wed Jan 26, 2022, 10:57am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
If someone is going to use a whistle or whatever (I don't) in their pocket, I would hope they switch it when it is supposed to be legally switched. During otherwise is just going to add to the confusion.
Every time I've noticed an official using this technique, they are almost always switching it shortly after they confirm the arrow at the table and point in that direction...before the AP throw-in completes.
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Old Wed Jan 26, 2022, 11:56am
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Brass In Pocket (The Pretenders, 1979) ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Altor View Post
Every time I've noticed an official using this technique, they are almost always switching it shortly after they confirm the arrow at the table and point in that direction ... before the AP throw-in completes.
That's me. Wrong by rule, but it (usually) works for me.

100% of the post-arthritis middle school games that I work don't have an arrow at the table.

I know that we can use a water bottle, or a pencil, or a folded paper, at the table, but then we would have to train the table crew, and about half of the table crews are middle school students.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
I swap mine before (not the legally correct time, I've already got enough to do immediately after the throwin) the held ball alternating possession throwin (and at the end of the first half).
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Old Wed Jan 26, 2022, 11:56am
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I don't use that technique. Instead, I remember who won the jump ball, and track possessions starting with the jump ball loser.
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Old Wed Jan 26, 2022, 12:05pm
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Misty Water Colored Memories (The Way We Were, Barbra Streisand, 1974) …

Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
I remember who won the jump ball, and track possessions starting with the jump ball loser.
It's great that you have such a great memory. I don't. You must not work a lot of girls middle school games.
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Old Wed Jan 26, 2022, 12:18pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altor View Post
Every time I've noticed an official using this technique, they are almost always switching it shortly after they confirm the arrow at the table and point in that direction...before the AP throw-in completes.
Officials should be in tune to the game they are working, not relying on something that requires them to do something and forget they did not change. I have seen many officials not switch and add more confusion as stated because they are worried about what whistle their pocket is in. You should know the circumstances the last time you called a held ball, just like you know the circumstances you called your last few fouls. Just an opinion.

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Old Wed Jan 26, 2022, 12:24pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
I know that we can use a water bottle, or a pencil, or a folded paper, at the table, but then we would have to train the table crew, and about half of the table crews are middle school students.
So notice whether they've changed the arrow / moved the water bottle after each AP throw in. If they haven't remind them the next time you run by the table. The arrow will be right *and* you'll better remember which way it's supposed to point.
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Old Wed Jan 26, 2022, 12:47pm
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Redundancy ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Officials should be in tune to the game they are working, ... you should know the circumstances the last time you called a held ball ...
Agree.

Redundancy. Whistle, game awareness, arrow at the table, and arrow on the scoreboard (not legally used). With definite game awareness (memory) trumping all.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Wed Jan 26, 2022 at 01:07pm.
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Old Wed Jan 26, 2022, 12:49pm
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Not The Kid's Table ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
So notice whether they've changed the arrow ... after each AP throw in. If they haven't remind them the next time you run by the table.
Have to often do this with trained paid adults at the table for some varsity games.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Jan 27, 2022 at 12:39pm.
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Old Wed Jan 26, 2022, 12:54pm
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Extra Layer Of Redundancy ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
... something that requires them to do something and forget they did not change.
Officials just as easily can forget the last alternating possession situation as they can forget their whistle swap. Whistle just adds an extra layer of redundancy.

And once in a pocket, the whistle (and the arrow once changed) doesn't fade over time, or get distracted by other matters.

The arrow is as much a crutch as the whistle, the difference is that the arrow is a crutch by rule, the whistle is an optional crutch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
... definite game awareness (memory) trumping all.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

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Last edited by BillyMac; Wed Jan 26, 2022 at 01:01pm.
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Old Wed Jan 26, 2022, 12:58pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
So notice whether they've changed the arrow / moved the water bottle after each AP throw in. If they haven't remind them the next time you run by the table. The arrow will be right *and* you'll better remember which way it's supposed to point.
Definitely better than having a bulge in your pocket and then all the single moms are wondering "is that your whistle or are you just happy to see me?"

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