IAABO Refresher Exam - Goaltending And Player Control Foul ...

[BillyMac]

28) B-1 goaltends A-1’s try. After this violation airborne A-1 charges B-2 and is charged with a player control foul. The official awards Team B the ball at the designated spot closest to the foul. Is the official correct?

IAABO says the answer is Yes, and cites 7-5-7.

I say the answer is No. The ball is not awarded at the designated spot closest to the foul, but rather, B’s throw-in is from anywhere along the end line. Citations below.

7-5-7 A throw-in anywhere along the end line after a goal or an awarded goal for basket interference or goaltending by a defensive player, as in 9-12 Penalty 1, the team not credited with the score must make a throw-in from the end of the court where the goal was made and from any point outside the end line and the officials must signal such.

7.5.7 SITUATION A: B1 goaltends on airborne shooter A1’s try. A1 fouls B1 in returning to the floor. RULING: Since no free throws result from the player-control foul, B’s throw-in is from anywhere along the end line because of the awarded goal for B1’s goaltending violation. (9-12 Penalty 1)

4-19-1-Note: Contact after the ball has become dead is incidental unless it is ruled intentional or flagrant or is committed by or on an airborne shooter.

4.19.6 SITUATION A: B1 obtains a legal position in A1’s path before A1 becomes airborne. A1 jumps and releases the ball on a try for goal. Before returning to the floor, airborne shooter A1 charges into B1. (a) Before the foul by A1, B2 commits basket interference ... RULING: In (a), both the violation and the foul are penalized. The basket interference by B2 causes the ball to become dead immediately. The violation is penalized by awarding the two points. The player-control foul on A1 is also charged. Team B is awarded the ball for a throw-in anywhere along the end line. A defensive-goaltending or basket-interference violation committed prior to a player-control foul does not contradict the general statement that when a player-control foul occurs that player cannot score. In the case of a defensive violation, it is the violation which results in awarding the score ...(4-12-1, 6-7-4, 6-7-9 EXCEPTION, 7-5-4a, 9-11)

What say you?

[Mike Goodwin]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

28) B-1 goaltends A-1’s try. After this violation airborne A-1 charges B-2 and is charged with a player control foul. The official awards Team B the ball at the designated spot closest to the foul. Is the official correct?

IAABO says the answer is Yes, and cites 7-5-7.

I say the answer is No. The ball is not awarded at the designated spot closest to the foul, but rather, B’s throw-in is from anywhere along the end line. Citations below.

[clip]

What say you?

I don't like their answer to this one.

A full reading of 4.19.6 Situation (a) and (b) suggests that sequence matters.

In (a): BI then PCF = 2pts, throw-in anywhere along the end line. 7-5-7.

In (b): PCF then GT = 0pts, designated spot nearest the foul. 7-5-4a.

According to their answer, the official awards 2 points to Team A then also 'penalizes' Team B with a designated spot throw-in.


4.19.6 SITUATION A

B1 obtains a legal position in A1’s path before A1 becomes airborne. A1 jumps and releases the ball on a try for goal. Before returning to the floor, airborne shooter A1 charges into B1. (a) Before the foul by A1, B2 commits basket interference; or (b) after the foul on A1, B2 slaps the ball on its downward flight.

In (a), both the violation and the foul are penalized. The basket interference by B2 causes the ball to become dead immediately. The violation is penalized by awarding the two points. The player-control foul on A1 is also charged. Team B is awarded the ball for a throw-in anywhere along the end line. A defensive-goaltending or basket-interference violation committed prior to a player-control foul does not contradict the general statement that when a player-control foul occurs that player cannot score. In the case of a defensive violation, it is the violation which results in awarding the score.

In (b), the ball becomes dead and the try ends immediately when the player-control foul on A1 occurs. The action of B2 is ignored as goaltending cannot occur after the try has ended. The ball is awarded to Team B for a throw-in from a designated spot out of bounds closest to where the foul occurred. (4-12-1, 6-7-4, 6-7-9 EXCEPTION, 7-5-4a, 9-11)

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

28) B-1 goaltends A-1’s try. After this violation airborne A-1 charges B-2 and is charged with a player control foul. The official awards Team B the ball at the designated spot closest to the foul. Is the official correct?

IAABO says the answer is Yes, and cites 7-5-7.

I say the answer is No. The ball is not awarded at the designated spot closest to the foul, but rather, B’s throw-in is from anywhere along the end line. Citations below.

7-5-7 A throw-in anywhere along the end line after a goal or an awarded goal for basket interference or goaltending by a defensive player, as in 9-12 Penalty 1, the team not credited with the score must make a throw-in from the end of the court where the goal was made and from any point outside the end line and the officials must signal such.

7.5.7 SITUATION A: B1 goaltends on airborne shooter A1’s try. A1 fouls B1 in returning to the floor. RULING: Since no free throws result from the player-control foul, B’s throw-in is from anywhere along the end line because of the awarded goal for B1’s goaltending violation. (9-12 Penalty 1)

4-19-1-Note: Contact after the ball has become dead is incidental unless it is ruled intentional or flagrant or is committed by or on an airborne shooter.

4.19.6 SITUATION A: B1 obtains a legal position in A1’s path before A1 becomes airborne. A1 jumps and releases the ball on a try for goal. Before returning to the floor, airborne shooter A1 charges into B1. (a) Before the foul by A1, B2 commits basket interference ... RULING: In (a), both the violation and the foul are penalized. The basket interference by B2 causes the ball to become dead immediately. The violation is penalized by awarding the two points. The player-control foul on A1 is also charged. Team B is awarded the ball for a throw-in anywhere along the end line. A defensive-goaltending or basket-interference violation committed prior to a player-control foul does not contradict the general statement that when a player-control foul occurs that player cannot score. In the case of a defensive violation, it is the violation which results in awarding the score ...(4-12-1, 6-7-4, 6-7-9 EXCEPTION, 7-5-4a, 9-11)

What say you?

1) The wording both IAABO Question #28 and NFHS Casebook Play 4.19.6 Situation A is very clear: A1 is still an Airborne Shooter when he/she makes contact with Charges into B2 (IAABO) and B1 (NFHS), whereas NFHS Casebook 4.19.6 Situation A(a) is poorly worded leaving the Reader to presumes that A1 is an Airborne Shooter when he/she makes contact with B1.

2) I do not know how the IAABO Rules Examination Committee could have answered "Yes" to Question #2 when the NFHS Casebook is part of the High School Edition of the IABBO Handbook.

I guess Billy or me will have to contact IAABO with our concerns.

MTD, Sr.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mike Goodwin

I don't like their answer to this one.

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I do not know how the IAABO Rules Examination Committee could have answered "Yes" to Question #28 ...

Thanks Mike Goodwin and Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. for your posts. I've made my local interpreter aware of my concerns. I'll let everybody know if I get a response.

Also, Mark T. DeNucci, Sr., thank you for not giving us the complete back story of this situation going all the way back to 1891 ("I personally knew Jimmy Naismith, Blah, Blah, Blah, Yada, Yada, Yada ...").

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Thanks Mike Goodwin and Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. for your posts. I've made my local interpreter aware of my concerns. I'll let everybody know if I get a response.

Also, Mark T. DeNucci, Sr., thank you for not giving us the complete back story of this situation going all the way back to 1891 ("I personally knew Jimmy Naismith, Blah, Blah, Blah, Yada, Yada, Yada ...").

Actually, the only history to this Play is the adoption of the definition Airborne Shooter which by definition created a retroactive PCF situation.

Both pre and post Airborne Shooter A1's PF is a CF. The difference being the penalty for A1's pre-Airborne Shooter would be FTs being Awarded to the Team B Player that was fouled by A1 if Team B was in the Bonus.

The real history lesson is why was the Airborne Shooter rule adopted, but that is a history lesson for another time. Back to the Big 12 Football Championship Game. GO BAYLOR!!

MTD, Sr.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Actually, the only history to this Play is the adoption of the definition Airborne Shooter which by definition created a retroactive PCF situation. Both pre and post Airborne Shooter A1's PF is a CF. The difference being the penalty for A1's pre-Airborne Shooter would be FTs being Awarded to the Team B Player that was fouled by A1 if Team B was in the Bonus. The real history lesson is why was the Airborne Shooter rule adopted, but that is a history lesson for another time.

Did you not notice that I thanked you for not offering us this long and boring ancient times hand-me-down oral history around the campfire back story.

I take back my "Thank you" and offer up a "Shut up" instead.

People must really hate it when you corner them at a cocktail party, with lots of "Excuse me, I have to go to the bathroom (and hide)".