Correcting error

[surehands]

A1 is fouled byB1, it is the seventh team foul on Team B and A1 goes to the line for a one and one. A1 makes the first but misses the second where the rebound is tipped in by A2. As Team B brings the ball up the court and first bald ends. Be fore the 3rd quarter stars scorer alerts the officials that the foul on B1 was only the 6th team foul on Team B and A1 should not have received a one and one. What is the world do we do?????

[Raymond]

Too late to correct.

The first live ball after the error was the second free throw. The next dead ball was the time frame after the tip-in. Once the ball was at the disposal of Team B for the throw in, we now have our second live ball.

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[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Too late to correct.

The first live ball after the error was the second free throw. The next dead ball was the time frame after the tip-in. Once the ball was at the disposal of Team B for the throw in, we now have our second live ball.

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That is the right conclusion, but for slightly imprecise reasoning.
The timeframe for correction is prior to the second live ball AFTER the clock has properly started. Therefore, the ball being made live for the second FT attempt is not actually a factor. (Because the game could be halted at this point by an official without impacting the correctable error timeframe.) What is important is that the ball remains live when the second FT attempt is missed and that the clock starts upon the tap by A2. This is the point at which the correctable error timeframe begins. Since the live ball now passes through the basket for a goal it becomes dead and the error must be fixed at this moment. As you note, once the ball is deemed to be at the disposal of Team B for a throw-in and becomes live again, it is too late to correct the error of awarding unmerited FTs.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

... the ball remains live when the second FT attempt is missed and that the clock starts upon the tap by A2. This is the point at which the correctable error time frame begins. Since the live ball now passes through the basket for a goal it becomes dead and the error must be fixed at this moment ...

So let's say that this is the "moment" (dead ball after field goal) that the correctable error is recognized.

2-10-5: Points scored, consumed time and additional activity, which may occur prior to the recognition of an error, must not be nullified.

Cancel the free throw point by A1. Do not cancel the two point tip in field goal by A2. Award the ball to Team B for a run the endline throwin at the point of interruption (dead ball after field goal).

Would that be how this correctable error could be corrected?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

That is the right conclusion, but for slightly imprecise reasoning.
The timeframe for correction is prior to the second live ball AFTER the clock has properly started. Therefore, the ball being made live for the second FT attempt is not actually a factor. (Because the game could be halted at this point by an official without impacting the correctable error timeframe.) What is important is that the ball remains live when the second FT attempt is missed and that the clock starts upon the tap by A2. This is the point at which the correctable error timeframe begins. Since the live ball now passes through the basket for a goal it becomes dead and the error must be fixed at this moment. As you note, once the ball is deemed to be at the disposal of Team B for a throw-in and becomes live again, it is too late to correct the error of awarding unmerited FTs.

Thanks for the catch. I knew my conclusion had a slight flaw in it, but was too lazy to pull out my books.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

So let's say that this is the "moment" (dead ball after field goal) that the correctable error is recognized.

2-10-5: Points scored, consumed time and additional activity, which may occur prior to the recognition of an error, must not be nullified.

Cancel the free throw point by A1. Do not cancel the two point tip in field goal by A2. Award the ball to Team B for a run the endline throwin at the point of interruption (dead ball after field goal).

Would that be how this correctable error could be corrected?

Yep

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Yep

Thank you. Now let's "twist it up" a little more.

After the first successful free throw by A1, the correctable error is discovered during a dead ball period after a common rebounding foul by A2 after the ball rebounds off the ring, and all are certain the try will not be successful.

2-10-4: If the error is a free throw by the wrong player or at the wrong basket, or the awarding of an unmerited free throw, the free throw and the activity during it, other than unsporting, flagrant, intentional or technical fouls, must be canceled.

4-20-3: The free throw ends when the try is successful, when it is certain the try will not be successful, when the try touches the floor or any player, or when the ball becomes dead.

What happens next (assume that Team B is in the bonus)?

[BillyMac]

Let's "twist it up" some more.

After the first successful free throw by A1, during the second free throw attempt (that missed), a common rebounding foul by A2 occurs while the (missed) free throw is in flight, and the correctable error is discovered during the dead ball period after the common rebounding foul by A2.

What happens next (assume that Team B is in the bonus)?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Thank you. Now let's "twist it up" a little more.

After the first successful free throw by A1, the correctable error is discovered during a dead ball period after a common rebounding foul by A2 after the ball rebounds off the ring, and all are certain the try will not be successful.

2-10-4: If the error is a free throw by the wrong player or at the wrong basket, or the awarding of an unmerited free throw, the free throw and the activity during it, other than unsporting, flagrant, intentional or technical fouls, must be canceled.

4-20-3: The free throw ends when the try is successful, when it is certain the try will not be successful, when the try touches the floor or any player, or when the ball becomes dead.

What happens next (assume that Team B is in the bonus)?

I’m taking your scenario of the rebounding foul to occur prior to any player touching the ball. Therefore, the clock has not properly started and the error of awarding unmerited FTs is correctable. Hence, both FTs and all activity which occurred during them are canceled. However, the rebounding foul stands as it happened after the FT ended. So proceed to the other end and award bonus FTs to the Team B player who was fouled by A2.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Let's "twist it up" some more.

After the first successful free throw by A1, during the second free throw attempt (that missed), a common rebounding foul by A2 occurs while the (missed) free throw is in flight, and the correctable error is discovered during the dead ball period after the common rebounding foul by A2.

What happens next (assume that Team B is in the bonus)?

So the FT is released, the players along the lane enter and battle for rebounding position and a foul occurs prior to the ball reaching the ring. We know that the error is still correctable because the clock hasn’t yet started. So cancel both FTs and the foul by A2 which occurred during the second FT attempt. Resume the game by reverting to the point of interruption, which is a throw-in due to Team A at the nearest OOB spot to where A1 was fouled before the erroneous FTs.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I’m taking your scenario of the rebounding foul to occur prior to any player touching the ball. Therefore, the clock has not properly started and the error of awarding unmerited FTs is correctable. Hence, both FTs and all activity which occurred during them are canceled. However, the rebounding foul stands as it happened after the FT ended. So proceed to the other end and award bonus FTs to the Team B player who was fouled by A2.

On this one, I really wonder if the NFHS was really being loose with their terminology. It seems that, in principle, they may want that foul ignored too. I know that the FT has technically ended, but it could conceptually be considered to be part of the FT activity until the ball is rebounded. The idea behind voiding a foul involving a correctable error like this is that the foul would have never occurred had there not been an erroneous FT awarded. And, where is such a foul going to occur...it is almost always going to occur on a rebound.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I’m taking your scenario of the rebounding foul to occur prior to any player touching the ball. Therefore, the clock has not properly started and the error of awarding unmerited FTs is correctable. Hence, both FTs and all activity which occurred during them are canceled. However, the rebounding foul stands as it happened after the FT ended. So proceed to the other end and award bonus FTs to the Team B player who was fouled by A2.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

On this one, I really wonder if the NFHS was really being loose with their terminology. It seems that, in principle, they may want that foul ignored too. I know that the FT has technically ended, but it could conceptually be considered to be part of the FT activity until the ball is rebounded. The idea behind voiding a foul involving a correctable error like this is that the foul would have never occurred had their not been an erroneous FT awarded. And, where is such a foul going to occur...it is almost always going to occur on a rebound.

I had this play years ago in a JuCo game and we did as Camron suggested.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

... wonder if the NFHS was really being loose with their terminology. It seems that, in principle, they may want that foul ignored too. I know that the FT has technically ended, but it could conceptually be considered to be part of the FT activity until the ball is rebounded. The idea behind voiding a foul involving a correctable error like this is that the foul would have never occurred had their not been an erroneous FT awarded. And, where is such a foul going to occur...it is almost always going to occur on a rebound.

Which is exactly why I asked about these two interesting and slightly different scenarios back to back, including a definition of a free throw and under what circumstances a free throw ends.

Thanks Nevaderef, Camron Rust, and Raymond for posting. I don't have the answer (I'm leaning toward Nevaderef's answer), but I do have the same questions about free throw "activity" as Camron Rust, and Raymond.

[Nevadaref]

What if Team B had cleanly rebounded the miss, advanced the ball to the opposite end of the court, and a hand-checking foul was then whistled against a defender? This action occurs only a few seconds after the rebound, but no one would cancel this foul.

The rules writers had to pick a cut-off point after which all activity stands. They couldn’t use time on the clock, so they selected the end of the erroneous FT. Therefore, that’s what we need to use when applying the rules. Raymond’s situation shows the need for precision in such a situation. If the definition of when a FT ends isn’t precisely adhered to, then the resulting application will be different.

I understand the argument being made by Camron that perhaps altering the CE rule to wipe out any common fouls committed during the rebounding activity would be more fair, but as officials we don’t have that discretion when working a contest. We have a duty to properly apply the rules as written. Would the NFHS or NCAA consider such a rule change? I doubt it given the infrequency of CE situations.