Its Got No Teeth ...

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I've had many occasions, especially at the college level, where a coach thinks we missed a called and the will add "that's a POE".

Same here on the high school level. They attend one preseason coaches presentation and they suddenly think that they're rule experts, when, of course, they usually have absolutely no concept regarding the nuances and subtle aspects of the POE.

Sometimes, when I'm sitting at my first local meeting of the season, going over that year's new POE, I can often predict what the coaches will hear, and more importantly, not hear, thinking to myself, "Oh no, we'll be hearing about this from coaches all season long".

Our local interpreter can't use the same preseason presentation for the coaches as he does for officials. Two different audiences, two different presentations.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Same here on the high school level. They attend one preseason coaches presentation and they suddenly think that they're rule experts, when, of course, they have absolutely no concept regarding the nuances and subtle aspects of the POE.

Sometimes, when I'm sitting at my first local meeting of the season, going over that year's new POE, I can often predict what the coaches will hear, and more importantly, not hear, thinking to myself, "Oh no, we'll be hearing about this from coaches all season long".

Our local interpreter can't use the same preseason presentation (Power Point, etc.) for the coaches as he does for officials. Two different audiences, two different presentations.

I have no problem at all with a coach pointing out that something is a point of emphasis for that season.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I have no problem at all with a coach pointing out that something is a point of emphasis for that season.

But we often hear these comments during irrelevant plays.

"Coach, that's not what the POE actually says."

"Coach, that was a moving opponent, time and distance DO apply."

Etcetera.

Coaches hear what they want to hear, and cherry pick to their own benefit.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

... they have absolutely no concept regarding the nuances and subtle aspects of the POE ... what the coaches will hear, and more importantly, not hear ...

I'm not saying that all coaches are "rule challenged", but many are.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

But we often hear these comments during irrelevant plays.

"Coach, that's not what the POE actually says."

"Coach, that was a BLIND screen, time and distance apply."

Etcetera.

Coaches hear what they want to hear, and cherry pick to their own benefit.



I'm not saying that all coaches are "rule challenged", but many are.

I'm not talking about all those what-ifs. My point stands that coaches are aware of the POEs for each particular season.

POEs are for coaches and players, just as much as officials. I want them seeing the same training videos, slides, and examples that we see. That way we are all seeing and hearing the same message. I definitely don't want to hear coaches saying "well, in the clinic we received...." because I would have no idea if they are being truthful or accurate.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I want them seeing the same training videos, slides, and examples that we see.

Officials know the full background (past rules and interpretations) of all new rule changes and POE. Coaches often don't. Officials fully understand the philosophy of purpose and intent, and advantage disadvantage. Coaches tend to be more literal. Coaches tend to cherry pick, hearing what they want to hear. Officials see the big picture. Coaches often attend these preseason meetings reluctantly, under duress, somebody made them come. Officials often attend these preseason meetings reluctantly, under duress, somebody made them come.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Two different audiences, two different presentations.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

My point stands that coaches are aware of the POEs for each particular season.

And I'll stand with you, with emphasis (no pun intended) on the word "aware", which doesn't imply a completely full understanding.

Note: Locally, schools have to send one coach to the preseason meeting, sometimes the short straw is pulled by the freshman coach, and information doesn't always get accurately (if at all) moved up the ladder.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

But we often hear these comments during irrelevant plays.

And I stand by my statement. Over forty years, for the number of times I've heard a coach correctly complain about a point of emphasis for a relevant play, I've heard an almost equal number of coaches incorrectly complain about a point of emphasis for a irrelevant play.

And, certainly not very numerous, but I have heard coaches complain by mentioning a past (not distant past) point of emphasis , "Hey BillyMac, wasn't that a point of emphasis a few years ago?".

[JRutledge]

Why are we worried about what a coach thinks is a POE?

I ask this because yes coaches point them out sometimes, but many are unaware that was even mentioned or in the rules book or an interpretation. Are we officiating differently because they are aware or not aware of them? No!!! At least I am not.

Coaches have an agenda when they tell us stuff. It can often be wrong, but not all the time, but often wrong.

Had a coach one time try to get me to call a goaltending call because the POE that year was about slapping the backboard and the last relevant time I can remember when a coach mentioning the POE of that year. He was totally wrong and it was a month or so into the season that year.

Use your skill to explain or not explain these things to a coach. But I am not going to tell them something I am not aware of in some position that has never been openly discussed.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Why are we worried about what a coach thinks is a POE? Are we officiating differently because they are aware or not aware of them? No!!! ... Had a coach one time try to get me to call a goaltending call because the POE that year was about slapping the backboard ... Use your skill to explain or not explain these things to a coach.

Nice post JRutledge.

Officiate differently? No. Agree.

Why are we worried? Worried may be too strong a word. The issue is that coaches often misunderstanding rule changes or points of emphases can spark "irritating" conversations.

Sounds like JRutledge was able to use his excellent game management skills to "defuse" his goaltending conversation, but it would have been nice if it never happened (don't know how to achieve that, can't live with coaches preseason meetings, can't live without them). In somebody else's game it could have been the straw that broke the camel's back. Tea time. One lump, or two?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

And I'll stand with you, with emphasis (no pun intended) on the word "aware", which doesn't imply a completely full understanding.

Note: Locally, schools have to send one coach to the preseason meeting, sometimes the short straw is pulled by the freshman coach, and information doesn't always get accurately (if at all) moved up the ladder.


And I stand by my statement. Over forty years, for the number of times I've heard a coach correctly complain about a point of emphasis for a relevant play, I've heard an almost equal number of coaches incorrectly complain about a point of emphasis for a irrelevant play.

And, certainly not very numerous, but I have heard coaches complain by mentioning a past (not distant past) point of emphasis , "Hey BillyMac, wasn't that a point of emphasis a few years ago?".

Your view is very limited to a small corner of Connecticut. I apparently officiate coaches with a higher basketball IQ. I have definitely officiated a lot more localities and levels than you have.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Officials know the full background (past rules and interpretations) of all new rule changes and POE. Coaches often don't. Officials fully understand the philosophy of purpose and intent, and advantage disadvantage. Coaches tend to be more literal. Coaches cherry pick, hearing what they want to hear. Officials see the big picture. Coaches often attend these preseason meetings reluctantly, under duress, somebody made them come. Officials often attend these preseason meetings reluctantly, under duress, somebody made them come.

Again, if we are seeing the same materials all those what-ifs are moot. If you want coaches to get different material, go for it. Good luck in trying to figure out if they got the same message as you.

Your bolded statement is a huge assumption that is not true for most HS officials. Just b/c you're a history buff who thinks knowing a timeline of a rule is essential to enforcing the rule doesn't mean that's how others think or approach their rules knowledge.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Your view is very limited to a small corner of Connecticut. I apparently officiate coaches with a higher basketball IQ. I have definitely officiated a lot more localities and levels than you have.

Absolutely 100% true. Haven't officiated more than a handful of games outside of my little corner of Connecticut (never outside Connecticut) and only two games above the high school varsity level.

And keep in mind that even back when I was working a full varsity high school schedule, I was still working recreation games on off nights (for the money, three kids going to college), and Catholic middle school games on off nights (because I liked the league, the assigner, the officials, the money, and all games close by).

And for the past few years, due to chronic arthritis in my ankle, I have self regulated myself to subvarsity games, which due to my retirement from my day job, and my availability in the mid-afternoon, have mostly been middle school and freshman games.