Strange Case Continued ...

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You reference IAABO and others reference IAABO as to when that organization says something, the buck stops there.

Thus my usual disclaimer: " ... which obviously doesn't mean a hill of beans to most members of this Forum".

And how many times have I posted, "When in Rome ..."?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

POEs are for the season for which the rule book is written. They are written because the rules makers don't feel officials are properly or consistently enforcing a particular rule. Why would a POE stay in the book every year? I'll repeat this again, but an effective POE is supposed to disappear. Why are we stuck on this one?

Agree. Well stated. This is different because it doesn't even match the rules language for the season in which it appeared, equating fouls to certain body parts to certain penalties (I'm agreeing with JRutledge). It's not in the rules language, only in the Point of Emphasis, that, as Raymond so elegantly stated, properly disappeared. Thus the only citation we have that equates fouls to certain body parts to certain penalties has disappeared.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

This POE is quite odd.

Stupid NFHS.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Raymond

POEs are for the season for which the rule book is written. They are written because the rules makers don't feel officials are properly or consistently enforcing a particular rule.

Why would a POE stay in the book every year? I'll repeat this again, but an effective POE is supposed to disappear.

Are we going to question every single POE that has disappeared? Why are we stuck on this one?

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

I do not think that POEs are just for what officials are not doing right. I think there are situations that need to be clarified to all participants. Of course we are to enforce rules and are more likely to look at the rules. But I do believe that there are things that coaches teach that are misunderstandings. I only say this because having been a football, baseball and softball umpire in my career, it seems like they are covering things that cause a lot of conflict with coaches and officials.

I think the reason the NF has now addressed Euro Steps and Spin Moves, is because coaches get really upset when you call these situations as violations. They do not realize that because it has a "name" it does not mean they are executed legally. I cannot tell you how many times I have called a traveling on a spin move and you would think I had never read a rulebook in my life based on the reaction of the coach and the fans. Then they tell you things that are not related to our rules.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Thus my usual disclaimer: " ... which obviously doesn't mean a hill of beans to most members of this Forum".

And how many times have I posted, "When in Rome ..."?

If you say all of that, then you would let some of that go. You keep talking about the NF's position as if they do not have their member states give interpretations which is often local anyway.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Raymond

And I wish you would quit with this devil's advocate mission you seem to have assigned to yourself. We don't need a devil's advocate. We are intelligent people who know how to ask questions if we don't understand or want clarification. We don't need you running interference. To me when you ask these questions and create these debates, it's because you need clarification. Stop feeling like you're speaking for some silent minority who's afraid to speak for themselves.

via GIPHY

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You keep talking about the NF's position as if they do not have their member states give interpretations which is often local anyway.

All Forum members don't speak IAABO language. We all don't speak Connecticut language. We all don't speak Illinois language.

But we do all speak NFHS language, it's the Rosetta Stone of basketball officiating.

Yes, local language could, can, does, and should override NFHS language, but to use such local language on the Forum, with no disclaimers, would turn the Forum into the Tower of Babel, making it difficult to get anything accomplished.

I would never state on the Forum that one is allowed to wear a black belt with one's uniform without also stating that this may only true in my little corner of Connecticut, it may not even be true for the entire state.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Peace

Let me get my church fan.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

What was that about? Hogging the spotlight? Forming a gauntlet for opponents to get thru? What about congregating at the door to the dressing room?

2011-12 Points Of Emphasis Sporting Behavior
The NFHS Basketball Rules Committee continues to be concerned about the following behavior:
Pregame Situations. Teams entering the gymnasium prior to the contest should not run through the area occupied by the opposing team or under the basket where opponents are warming up. Teams should only enter, jog or warm-up on their own half of the court. Gatherings intended to motivate a team after the warm-up period, during or following player introductions and post-game celebrations should be performed in the area directly in front of the team bench. If during the pregame or half-time warm-up period one team leaves the floor, the other team should not use the entire court; teams should only warm-up on their half of the court. Only authorized personnel should be permitted on the floor. All spectators should be in designated areas.

Our biggest problem here in Connecticut was visitors spitting in the center circle on the logo during pregame introductions and claiming that they were only doing so to clean the bottoms of their shoes.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Eventually veteran officials will retire, or die, and "announcers not being cheerleaders" will be forgotten, leading to the resurrection of this 2014-15 Point of Emphasis.

2014-15 Points Of Emphasis
The announcer shall be prohibited from making an announcement while the clock is running and while the clock is stopped and the ball is live…such as during a free throw, a throw-in, etc. Doing so could potentially affect communication of coaches or players, or could be disconcerting.
• The announcer shall be prohibited from interrupting the game through the use of the
microphone unless there is an emergency.
• Announcements or comments shall be made during those times when there is a stoppage of
the clock and the ball is not live, such as time-outs, between quarters, pre-game, half time
and post-game.
• The announcer is allowed to announce basic information that does not potentially affect the
play in general, the players, the coaches or the officials. The announcer’s information is not
official information and could be misinformation shared with all.
• Appropriate training of announcers by school personnel and proper pregame instruction by
the referee are necessary.
May be announced - Examples:
• Player who scored
• Player charged with foul
• Player attempting free throw
• Team granted a time-out
• Length of time-out: 30 seconds or 60 seconds
• Player entering game
• Team rosters
Shall not be announced – Examples
• Number of points player scored
• Number of fouls on player
• Number of team fouls
• Number of team time-outs or number remaining
• Time remaining in the quarter/game
• Type of foul or violation
• Emphatic two-point or three-point field goal
The announcer’s role does not include “cheering the home team on” or otherwise inciting the
crowd. Doing so is common at other levels of athletic events, but high school athletics is different
because sports are educationally based. In a very real sense, the public-address announcer at a
high school event is a “Champion of Character.” He/she can influence the atmosphere of the
contest by what is said and how it is said. The announcer who performs professionally promotes
good sportsmanship by what he/she says and how he/she acts upon saying it.

Also found this on my hard drive. Not sure of the source, it may be local, or state.

The National Federation has issued new guidelines regarding game announcers.

While the game is in progress, announcers may give basic information such as who scores, who fouls and how many fouls that is on a player, who is shooting free throws and how many free throws, which team is awarded a time out and whether the time out is a full time out or a 30 second time out, which substitute is entering the game and which player is being replaced.

Announcers should not announce things such as "How much time there is left in a period" or "How many time outs a team has left." Also, announcements pertaining to raffles, 50-50 drawings, concession stands, future schedules, etc - in other words, all those things that are not directly related to the game should only be announced prior to the game, during time outs, intermission, between periods, and after the game.

What they want eliminated are the "carnival barkers" that tend to distract from the actual game and those announcements that would tend to give information that is the responsibility of the teams and coaches (ie: how much time is left or how many time outs a team has remaining.). There is no penalty involved. Announcers should be handled the same as scorekeepers and timers who are not in compliance with the spirit of the game.

This information should be covered with the announcer at the table prior to the game.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do not understand this obsession with old interpretations that never made it into any rulebook.

Because one may see it in their game and want to adjudicate correctly?

10.6.1 Situation E: B1 attempts to steal the ball from stationary A1 who is holding the ball. B1 misses the ball and falls to the floor. In dribbling away, A1 contacts B1's leg, loses control of the ball and falls to the floor. Ruling: No infraction or foul has occurred and play continues. Unless B1 made an effort to trip or block A1, he/she is entitled to a position on the court even if it is momentarily lying on the floor after falling down

Vanished from casebook in 2005-06, it goes back to at least 1996-97 (the oldest NFHS Rulebook in my library), so it was a NFHS interpretation for, at least, nine years, not a one hit wonder.

There were no relevant rule changes, or interpretation changes, in 2005-06, so why did it disappear?

NFHS decided to change the interpretation to a foul, but with no announcement?

Deleted due to limited space in the casebook?

Editorial mistake?

Originally Posted by BillyMac

This has happened in the rulebook. Defensive matchup after three substitutions (inadvertently deleted in it's entirety). Definition of goaltending (inadvertently deleted outside cylinder language).

4-23-1: Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent ... Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent.

The rule hasn't changed. The language in the vanished caseplay still matches the rule language: Unless B1 made some effort (extending arm, leg, rolling, etc.) to trip or block A1, B1 is entitled to a position on the court even if B1 is momentarily lying on the floor after falling down.

But we can't show a coach, or a young'un official, the casebook citation? Abracadabra. It vanished.

But we can show a 4-23-1 rule citation. Is that enough to rule a legal play?

If so, why did the NFHS bother to have made it a casebook play in the first place? Somebody must have had a question about it?

Could the NFHS have decided to change this interpretation to a foul?

I have a ton of curiosity. The suspense is killing me. Plus, the next time this happens in my game, I want to get it right.

Maybe I''ll get some answers in a few weeks?

Just have to keep my head on straight and not spend too much time in the open bar hospitality room.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

All Forum members don't speak IAABO language. We all don't speak Connecticut language. We all don't speak Illinois language.

But we do all speak NFHS language, it's the Rosetta Stone of basketball officiating.

There is no "language" we just officiate. I do not care what people do around the country and certainly not states that I never see teams from those places. I just officiate.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Yes, local language could, can, does, and should override NFHS language, but to use such local language on the Forum, with no disclaimers, would turn the Forum into the Tower of Babel, making it difficult to get anything accomplished.

I work with officials in multiple states from time to time. No one goes around talking about, "Well in Ohio we do....." We call the game and we use the language of the level we are working. You are making it very hard on yourself if you think there are things we do not do universally. Referee Magazine does not discuss officiating from only Wisconsin when they publish their materials.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I would never state on the Forum that one is allowed to wear a black belt with one's uniform without also stating that this may only true in my little corner of Connecticut, it may not even be true for the entire state.

It is pretty universal not to wear a belt. We do not have to go around telling people not to do this, they can look and figure that out. But if they need training on the subject we direct them in the right direction. Kind of like this topic you keep bringing up.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

There is no "language" we just officiate.

Officiate ... and post on the Forum.

We need some common language to communicate properly.

Deviating locally, or statewide, from NFHS rules and mechanics is fine, but only if one stays local, once one ventures and communicates outside of one's area, we need a common language to get anything accomplished, and lacking anything better, it NFHS language.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Officiate ... and post on the Forum.

We need some common language to communicate properly.

Deviating locally, or statewide, from NFHS rules and mechanics is fine, but only if one stays local, once one ventures and communicates outside of one's area, we need a common language to get anything accomplished, and lacking anything better, it NFHS language.

Most officials never come to any forum to discuss rules in detail. So not sure what language you are talking about related to one type of play or situation that most officials are not ruling on. That is not about language that is about understanding. Again if this is something you struggling with, talk with them in detail. Not sure why you are trying to get people here to agree with you?

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It is pretty universal not to wear a belt.

Glad you added the qualifier "pretty", because not here. Had a guy wear a belt in a state final only a few years ago.

IAABO International tells us beltless pants. We're a rebel outlier.

Statewide, we point to floor for a two point field goal try when the shooter has a foot touching three point line. Not IAABO International approved. Again, we're a rebel outlier. If I were to describe this mechanic on the Forum, I would clearly state that it may be only a local (state) mechanic, never expecting anybody else to use it, or ask anybody else to approve of it.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Most officials never come to any forum to discuss rules in detail.

JRutledge's most ridiculous post ever (I will apologize to JRutledge if moderators think I was over the top).

Any forum? Maybe (I don't participate in other forums except the Official Forum, except for an occasional You Tube event).

But in regard to the Official Forum? What has JRutledge been reading all these years?

The Forum is quite often about details.

Sometimes we quibble about single words (i.e., "opponent" for distracting a free thrower).

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Not sure why you are trying to get people here to agree with you?

I'm not. Just responding to, or answering, posts. My opinions only.

Don't really care a lot if anybody disagrees with me, but will graciously thank those who are able to change my mind with facts.

I'm always trying to improve my rules knowledge.

When in Rome ... trumps NFHS language, but only when in Rome.

But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.” So the Lord scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city. That is why it was called Babel—because there the Lord confused the language of the whole world. From there the Lord scattered them over the face of the whole earth. (Genesis 11:5-9)