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-   -   NFHS Shot Clock Guidelines ... (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/105458-nfhs-shot-clock-guidelines.html)

JRutledge Mon Jul 19, 2021 03:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1043946)
I was actually more concerned about the NCAA ten second rule language than I was about the NCAA shot clock language. Does the NCAA ten second rule start on the inbounds "touch" (as opposed to the NFHS inbounds "control")?
I will put it this way. NCAA uses the shot clock for all games and all levels. So yes the language reflects the rules that apply to the shot clock. Not a state adopted or conference adopted rule.

Quote:
NCAA Rule 10-10 says:

Section 10. 10-Second Backcourt
The 10-second count shall begin when a player legally touches the ball in his team’s backcourt, except on a rebound or jump ball. In such case, the 10-second count shall start on player control. Once the 10-second count begins, an inbounds player (and his team) shall not be in continuous control of a ball that is in his backcourt for 10 consecutive seconds. The 10-second count shall be reset on all stoppages of the game clock except when the defense causes the ball to be out of bounds, the offense retains the possession after a held ball, or there is a technical foul assessed against the offensive team. The offensive team will always have a reset of the 10-second count if the team is charged a timeout.
Quote:
NCAA Rule 5-10 says:

Section 10. Starting Game and Shot Clocks

Art. 2. The game clock shall be started when:
a. An inbounds player legally touches the ball after the throw-in has been
released;
b. A tossed ball on a jump ball is legally touched;
c. The ball legally touches a player on the playing court when a free throw
is not successful and is to remain live; and
Peace

BillyMac Mon Jul 19, 2021 03:39pm
Matching Rules ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1043948)
NCAA Rule 10-10 The 10-second count shall begin when a player legally touches the ball in his team’s backcourt ... NCAA Rule 5-10 Starting Game and Shot Clocks The game clock shall be started when An inbounds player legally touches the ball after the throw-in has been released ...
Thanks JRutledge. As I expected, The NCAA ten second rule perfectly matches the NCAA shot clock rule.

The NFHS should do the same (matching rules), or it can change the shot clock guideline to "control" (holding, dribbling) rather than "touch".

BillyMac Mon Jul 19, 2021 04:55pm
Fundamental Rule ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1043935)
State high school championship final game. Shot clock used. Team B 65, Team A 64. Fourth period. Fifteen seconds left in game. Both teams come out of a timeout. Team A, with no timeouts remaining, inbounds in their backcourt. Inbounder A1 passes to A2, who fumbles (game clock and shot clock legally start on inbounds touch) the ball away, but eventuality, after two seconds pass (with deflections but no control by both teams), secures control of the ball by holding it and the begins to dribble. Facing strong defensive pressure in his backcourt, A2 is still in his backcourt when the shot clock is at 25 seconds (game clock at five seconds) and the trail official calls a ten second violation on Team A. Team A head coach politely argues that Team A only had "control" of the ball for approximately eight seconds (proven after game on videotape) in the backcourt, quoting 9-8 and 4-2, and should not have had the ten second violation called, depriving Team A of a chance to win the game.
A two second time difference shouldn't be just passed off as, "Sorry Coach, this is a shot clock game". The ten second rule with the language "in continuous control of the ball which is in his/her backcourt for 10 seconds" is a fundamental basketball rule that hasn't changed in over forty years. It should take more than just a one sentence guideline, "Use the shot clock to administer the 10-second backcourt count (9-8)" (that includes the actual unchanged existing rule citation) to overturn such a fundamental rule. It's an oversight with an unintended consequence, it has to be. Luckily, there are a few different ways to correct it. The NFHS tried to fit a round NCAA peg into a square NFHS hole, with little attention to detail (even JRutledge said that the language was very similar, I say maybe copied, with no regard for differing details and unintended consequences).

BillyMac Mon Jul 19, 2021 05:02pm
IAABO "Gang Of Four” ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1043945)
I will be attending the IAABO International Fall Seminar, September 29, 2021 through October 3, 2021, in Trumbull, Connecticut. The “Gang of Four” IAABO co-interpreters will be hosting a presentation on rule changes, editorial revisions, points of emphasis, and manual changes. I will be sure to bring up this shot clock mechanic and its conflict with the current ten second rule. Of course, as usual, it will only be an IAABO interpretation which obviously doesn't mean a hill of beans to most members of this Forum.
Gave them a heads up and got this response.

I don't believe we'll be addressing this b/c, as of now, the NFHS has not approved the shot clock as a "national" rule, but only by State Association Adoption. It'll be up to each state that chooses to use the shot clock to decide HOW they want to implement it. Totally agree with your question and your play scenario ... my "guess" is that states that choose to use the shot clock will use the mechanic that 10-seconds in the back court is based on the "touch" of the ball and the shot clock starting and NOT on "player/team" control on the court. This is just my opinion, as we have not discussed as a group.

Point to JRutledge. Can game, set, and match be next?

One thing that I don't want to do is to visually count with a shot clock going. It can only lead to problems with coaches, and fans.

BillyMac Mon Jul 19, 2021 05:16pm
Secret Handshake ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1043953)
.. my "guess" is that states that choose to use the shot clock will use the mechanic that 10-seconds in the back court is based on the "touch" of the ball and the shot clock starting and NOT on "player/team" control on the court. This is just my opinion, as we have not discussed as a group.
Just got a followup email that said that they want me to mention this inconsistency during their presentation.

Do they know what their getting into?

They do have "secret handshake" connection to the NFHS, so maybe they can come up with an updated interpretation or confirmation over the next several weeks.

Lots of states are represented by IAABO. Some are already using a shot clock. Some may start to use a shot clock soon. Some may never use a shot clock. I guess that they feel that this is worth covering.

Raymond Mon Jul 19, 2021 05:28pm
The change doesn't go into effect until the 2022-23 season, so the current count-start rules are not affected.

Better question: how are the states/locales that currently use shot clocks handling the discrepancy?

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

JRutledge Mon Jul 19, 2021 06:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1043952)
A two second time difference shouldn't be just passed off as, "Sorry Coach, this is a shot clock game". The ten second rule with the language "in continuous control of the ball which is in his/her backcourt for 10 seconds" is a fundamental basketball rule that hasn't changed in over forty years. It should take more than just a one sentence guideline, "Use the shot clock to administer the 10-second backcourt count (9-8)" (that includes the actual unchanged existing rule citation) to overturn such a fundamental rule. It's an oversight with an unintended consequence, it has to be. Luckily, there are a few different ways to correct it. The NFHS tried to fit a round NCAA peg into a square NFHS hole, with little attention to detail (even JRutledge said that the language was very similar, I say maybe copied, with no regard for differing details and unintended consequences).
When I have a discussion with a coach about when the count starts will likely be one of the first times that has ever happen. So if you have to go through all of that with a coach, it will be a very rare situation, to begin with. Kind of like discussing backcourt rules with coaches who never picked up a rulebook. And they never seem to understand the concept of team control and touching the ball last in the FC and first in the BC even if the ball was knocked away. So again if this is a state-adopted rule I seriously doubt I will have to point out what happens with games in a state that has adopted the rule for all levels (or at least the level we are discussing at the time). Not like we get a ton of cross-over games from each state and I even work in two different states.

Peace

BillyMac Mon Jul 19, 2021 06:29pm
Not My Finest Hour ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1043957)
When I have a discussion with a coach about when the count starts will likely be one of the first times that has ever happen.
One time for me, over thirty five years ago in a junior varsity game, obviously didn't involve a shot clock, but involved a mistake by me carelessly and erroneously continuing a five second throwin count after a successful free throw into a ten second backcourt count violation. The coach was paying attention to the game clock and he let me vehemently know about it, "The (game) clock only ticked down seven seconds", to the tune of a technical foul. I did apologize to him the next time I saw him after my partner and I figured it out on the ride home.

Good reason to switch hands when changing one count into an another.

BillyMac Mon Jul 19, 2021 06:36pm
Discrepancy, What Discrepancy ???
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1043955)
Better question: how are the states/locales that currently use shot clocks handling the discrepancy?
Do they even realize that there is a discrepancy?

With our hybrid NCAA/NFHS rules for Connecticut private prep schools and shot clocks for varsity games, I honestly believe that many of local officials don't know, or don't care, about the discrepancy, nor does the private prep schools sports governing body (coaches, athletic directors, and headmasters).

Robert Goodman Tue Jul 20, 2021 09:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1043937)
Agree. The NFHS has to do something.

Perhaps aligning it's ten second rule with that of the NCAA, or the NBA?

Not that I know what either of those rules (wording) may be.

Or perhaps the NFHS shot clock should start on inbounds "control" (holding, dribbling) rather than simply "touch"?
Maybe that was one of the reasons that when conferences started experimenting with a shot clock decades ago, some of them started the clock only on front court possession.

BillyMac Tue Jul 20, 2021 09:32am
Front Court Shot Clock ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Goodman (Post 1043968)
Maybe that was one of the reasons that when conferences started experimenting with a shot clock decades ago, some of them started the clock only on front court possession.
Nice contribution to the thread. Thanks Robert Goodman.

BillyMac Tue Jul 20, 2021 10:05am
IAABO Gang Of Four ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1043954)
They do have "secret handshake" connection to the NFHS, so maybe they can come up with an updated interpretation or confirmation over the next several weeks.
They've decided to use the secret handshake.

... will forward the information and question/scenario to the NFHS and ask for their interpretation/ruling.

I will update the Forum if I receive word of an update or confirmation.

BillyMac Fri Jul 23, 2021 02:44pm
The Old Line State ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1043927)
MD and DC both use a 30-second shot clock. MD still has a visible 10-second count ...
Sorry, late to the party.

ilyazhito:

In Maryland, when does one, by rule, start the ten second visual count, touch, or control?

If control, do coaches and fans react negatively to differences between shot clock numbers and ten second counts (if they exist)?

ilyazhito Sat Jul 24, 2021 09:40am
In MD, the 10-second count starts on control, because it is a visible count. I would prefer that it be non-visible and on the touch, but it is the way it is (unless MPSSAA decides to change the rule).

BillyMac Sat Jul 24, 2021 09:45am
Ten Seconds! Ten Seconds! Ten Seconds! ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1044033)
In MD, the 10-second count starts on control, because it is a visible count. I would prefer that it be non-visible and on the touch, but it is the way it is (unless MPSSAA decides to change the rule).
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1044026)
If control, do coaches and fans react negatively to differences between shot clock numbers and ten second counts (if they exist)?
Most fans and coaches probably aren't cognizant enough to know the reason for the difference, and could get upset when their team's archrival isn't whistled for a ten second violation at 25 seconds on the shot clock.


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