Fun With Two Or Three Points ...

[BillyMac]

Center A2, the tallest player in the league, sets a ball screen for point guard A1, the shortest player in the league. Both A1 and A2 are outside the three point arc. Because of the great screen, A1 finds himself undefended for a split second and attempts a three point try, however, after A1 releases the try, the ball (on the way up) strikes A2 in the head. The ball awkwardly ricochets high into the air, and subsequently passes through the basket.

Two points, or three points? Is this like the alley-oop pass? And remember, the teammate, A2, is outside (not inside) the arc.

Easy extra credit: Same thing, but horn to end period sounds after the ball ricochets off A2's head, but before the ball enters the basket?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Center A2, the tallest player in the league, sets a ball screen for point guard A1, the shortest player in the league. Both A1 and A2 are outside the three point arc. Because of the great screen, A1 finds himself undefended for a split second and attempts a three point try, however, after A1 releases the try, the ball strikes A2 on the top of his head. The ball awkwardly ricochets high into the air, and subsequently passes through the basket.

Two points, or three points? Is this like the alley-oop pass? And remember, the teammate, A2, is outside (not inside) the arc.

Easy extra credit: Same thing, but horn to end period sounds after the ball ricochets off A2's head, but before the ball enters the basket?

If the ball hit the head of A2 and he was clearly not anywhere near the basket then I believe it should be ruled a 2.

The basket on the extra credit would not count because the try was over when it hit A2 on top of the head. Clearly, they are not shooting the ball or the shot is over at that point.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The basket on the extra credit would not count because the try was over when it hit A2 on top of the head.

Agree.

4-41-4: The try ends when the throw is successful, when it is certain the throw is unsuccessful, when the thrown ball touches the floor or when the ball becomes dead.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If the ball hit the head of A2 and he was clearly not anywhere near the basket then I believe it should be ruled a 2.

Won't agree, or disagree with you. I didn't have a prepared answer. I need to ponder it a while more.

Not sure what being "near the basket" has to do with the situation? To be clear, while A2 was not anywhere near the basket, neither was A1, they were both outside the three point arc. The disparity in the heights of both players and the closeness of shooter A1 to his screener, put screener A2's head in the way of the "normal" upward trajectory of A1's three point attempt.

While we allow a successful three point try, and a successful three point pass (alley-oop), do we allow a "successful" three point defection?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Not sure what being "near the basket" has to do with the situation? To be clear, while A2 was not anywhere near the basket, neither was A1, they were both outside the three point arc. The disparity in the heights of both players and the closeness of shooter A1 to his screener, put screener A2's head in the way of the "normal" trajectory of A1's three point attempt.

Did you say "awkwardly ricochets" into the basket? So I am assuming that that means that the shot or the ball is nowhere near the basket or has a chance to go in otherwise. At some level, we have to judge if the ball is going to the basket just like the other play originally. It is not explicit in the caseplays you posted, but there is something like that in other rules. So if I throw the ball to the sideline and the ball hit me and goes over to the basket and everyone was behind the 3-point line, you giving 3 points? Not sure I agree with that either.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Did you say "awkwardly ricochets" into the basket? So I am assuming that that means that the shot or the ball is nowhere near the basket or has a chance to go in otherwise.

While the original trajectory from A1 was "normal" and had a good chance to go in, the awkward ricochet from A2 was also "normal" enough to have a good chance of going in, demonstrated by the fact that it did, indeed, go in. There isn't only one single trajectory that works, there can be multiple successful trajectories from one launch spot (line drive versus arching shot), and certainly from two different launch spots.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

So if I throw the ball to the sideline and the ball hit me and goes over to the basket and everyone was behind the 3-point line, you giving 3 points?

Great example. I'm a big fan of extreme examples to test ideas.

I honestly don't know the answer. I'm not even "leaning" one way.

Again, while we allow a successful three point try, and a successful three point pass (alley-oop), do we allow a "successful" three point (everybody behind the arc) defection?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

At some level, we have to judge if the ball is going to the basket ... something like that in other rules.

Like the goaltending rule?

Goaltending is when a player touches the ball during a try, or tap, while it is in its downward flight, entirely above the basket ring level, outside the imaginary cylinder above the ring, and has the possibility of entering the basket.

Which begs the question, can an alley-oop pass from behind the three-point line (as we've discussed in this thread) that is on it's downward flight, entirely above the basket ring level, outside the imaginary cylinder above the ring, and having the possibility of entering the basket, be legally touched by a player?

Yes it can, it's not a try, even though it's been "kind of" treated as such since 2001-02 (remember Destiny's Child's "Bootylicious"?).

[BillyMac]

Maybe the important factor is if the ball is below (or above) the ring level when it touches (deflects off of) another player (offensive or defensive)?

4.41.4 - Situation B: A1’s three-point try is short and below ring level when it hits the shoulder of: (a) A2; or (b) B1 and rebounds to the backboard and through the basket. Ruling: The three-point try ended when it was obviously short and below the ring. However, since a live ball went through the basket, two points are scored in both (a) and (b). (5-1)

In 4.41.4 Situation B the ball is on the way down (try is short). In my silly scenario, the ball is on the way up.

Screener A2's head was definitely below the ring.

Grasping at straws here, straws to support any answer, either way.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Center A2, the tallest player in the league, sets a ball screen for point guard A1, the shortest player in the league. Both A1 and A2 are outside the three point arc. Because of the great screen, A1 finds himself undefended for a split second and attempts a three point try, however, after A1 releases the try, the ball (on the way up) strikes A2 in the head. The ball awkwardly ricochets high into the air, and subsequently passes through the basket. Two points, or three points? Is this like the alley-oop pass? And remember, the teammate, A2, is outside (not inside) the arc. Easy extra credit: Same thing, but horn to end period sounds after the ball ricochets off A2's head, but before the ball enters the basket?

If we're not counting anything if the horn sounds before the ball enters the basket, then is it possible that we shouldn't score three points (just two) on the defection (everybody behind the arc) that enters the basket before the horn sounds?

Or do they not have anything to do with each other?

[BillyMac]

With 0:04 left in the second quarter, B1 has the ball on the left wing in Team B’s frontcourt, standing behind the three point arc. B5 makes a back door cut toward the basket. B1 passes the ball toward the ring and B5 leaps for the potential alley-oop dunk. The horn to end the period sounds before the ball enters and passes through the goal directly from B1’s pass and is not touched by B5.

What's the call? It's a pass, not a try, but do we treat it as a "Bootylicious" try?

[ilyazhito]

This is a 3-point try, even though it was not intended to be such. It is a ball thrown towards the goal with a chance of scoring in flight, so by rule it is a try, and since it was launched behind the 3-point line, and not touched by anyone, 3 points score.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

With 0:04 left in the second quarter, B1 has the ball on the left wing in Team B’s frontcourt, standing behind the three point arc. B5 makes a back door cut toward the basket. B1 passes the ball toward the ring and B5 leaps for the potential alley-oop dunk. The horn to end the period sounds before the ball enters and passes through the goal directly from B1’s pass and is not touched by B5.

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

This is a 3-point try ...

No it isn't. It's a pass (it says as such in the interpretation that I slightly modified). It's just treated as a try for the purpose of determining two or three points (not requiring judgment as to whether the ball in flight was a pass or a try).

This is a real rule language try. 4-41-2: A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score two or three points by throwing the ball into a team’s own basket. A player is trying for goal when the player has the ball and in the official’s judgment is throwing or attempting to throw for goal.

It doesn't say that a try is an attempt to pass the ball to a teammate. Attempting to throw for goal is not the same as attempting to pass the ball to a teammate.

I also believe (by purpose and intent) that this same 2001-02 clarification allows us to treat a last second ally-oop pass (as we've been discussing) the enters the basket untouched after the horn sounds to count, in this case, as three points.

But that is just my humble opinion.

[ilyazhito]

Can there be goaltending on this thrown ball? If I recall correctly, if this thrown ball was knocked down above the height of the basket, on its downward flight, and with a chance to score, then goaltending could be called. Since goaltending can only be called on tries, this alley-oop that did not connect would be considered a try by rule.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

Can there be goaltending on this thrown ball? If I recall correctly, if this thrown ball was knocked down above the height of the basket, on its downward flight, and with a chance to score, then goaltending could be called. Since goaltending can only be called on tries, this alley-oop that did not connect would be considered a try by rule.

If you deem the throw ball is a "pass" then the answer is no. If you deem this is a shot like Dereck Whittenburg and it falls short and Lorenzo Charles puts it back in, you could I guess. But that play the shot was going to be short and it would not have been GT at all IMO.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

... this alley-oop that did not connect would be considered a try by rule.

... by rule clarification.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

Can there be goaltending on this thrown ball?

Originally Posted by BillyMac

With 0:04 left in the second quarter, B1 has the ball on the left wing in Team B’s frontcourt, standing behind the three point arc. B5 makes a back door cut toward the basket. B1 passes the ball toward the ring and B5 leaps for the potential alley-oop dunk. The horn to end the period sounds before the ball enters and passes through the goal directly from B1’s pass and is not touched by B5.

In my opinion, the 2001-02 rule clarification suggests that one can count the (passed into the basket) basket after the horn sounds, count it as three points, and call goaltending if it occurs.

Just my personal opinion. My mind can be easily changed.