The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball
Register FAQ Community Calendar Today's Posts Search

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 18, 2021, 06:31pm
Rich's Avatar
Get away from me, Steve.
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 15,794
Billy's right.

Like it or not, by rule this is a 3-point basket.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 18, 2021, 06:47pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 30,557
What is the intent and purpose of the rule? That is the answer.

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 18, 2021, 06:48pm
Rich's Avatar
Get away from me, Steve.
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 15,794
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
What is the intent and purpose of the rule? That is the answer.



Peace


The word throw is in the damned rule.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 18, 2021, 07:08pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 30,557
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich View Post
The word throw is in the damned rule.
I understand all of that, but what was the intent of the rule when they changed this? What were the examples they gave?

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 18, 2021, 06:52pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 23,378
Good Old Days ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
What is the intent and purpose of the rule?
Initially, JRutledge would be correct.

But that was over thirty years go, back when Whitney Houston's "How Will I Know" was a big hit, but interpretations have changed over that length of time, and Miss Houston is no longer with us.

Read the rule, read the casebook play.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Tue May 18, 2021 at 06:56pm.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 18, 2021, 07:07pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 30,557
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Initially, JRutledge would be correct.

But that was over thirty years go, back when Whitney Houston's "How Will I Know" was a big hit, but interpretations have changed over that length of time.

Read the rule, read the casebook play.
I did read the rule and the casebook. And I was around when this interpretation changed. It was always meant for an alley-opp kind of pass that happened to go in the basket. Just like I asked the NCAA Editor about their backcourt rule and the casebook and all interpretations said a play that happened in the WVU-Gonzaga game early in the season. And it took me (I am sure someone else contacted them but they did respond) to realize that the rule they had written did not cover a situation that happened in that game. Even Art Hyland told me this in an email and said that the intent and purpose of the rule was to not cover a situation where the ball is deflected in the backcourt when the rule says only the frontcourt the rule applies.


Only #1 Play.


According to the NCAA Rule, is a backcourt violation because there is no mention of a deflection from the backcourt that results in touch to the frontcourt. But after further review, the Rules Editor had to realize that they did not think of every possible situation and put something out to make clear that this should not be a violation. I feel like the very same thing is happening in this video you posted Billy. The ball was not going anywhere near the basket and was clearly altered to go up to the basket.

It really does not matter, because this is not a common thing. But I am not giving 3 points if I am the ruling official.

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 19, 2021, 03:17am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 15,015
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich View Post
Billy's right.

Like it or not, by rule this is a 3-point basket.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Nope, he’s dead wrong and so are you.
The different case play in which the thrown ball is well below the level of the ring and strikes a defender’s shoulder then bounces up and into the goal is the proper citation. That ruling is a two-point goal.
As Rut writes, the action shown in the video is not what is intended by or under the purview of the rule and/or case play cited by Billy.

Last edited by Nevadaref; Wed May 19, 2021 at 10:30am.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 19, 2021, 05:53am
Rich's Avatar
Get away from me, Steve.
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 15,794
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
Nope, he’s dead wrong and so are you.
The different case play in which the thrown ball is well below the level of the ring and strikes a defender’s shoulder then bounces up and into the goal is the proper citation. That ruling is a two-point goal.
As Rut writes, the action shown in the video is not what is intended by or under the purview or the rule and/or case play cited by Billy.


Not the first time I was wrong. At least someone found a case play.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 19, 2021, 09:56am
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 23,378
Intent ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
... action shown in the video is not what is intended by or under the purview or the rule and/or case play cited by Billy.
I think that I figured out the intent of the rule/case play I cited.

5-2-1: A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who is located behind the team’s own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three points. A ball that touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, an official, or any other goal from the field counts two points for the team into whose basket the ball is thrown.

5.2.1 SITUATION C: A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line. The ball is legally touched by: (a) B1 who is in the three-point area; (b) B1 who is in the two-point area; (c) A2 who is in the three-point area; or (d) A2 who is in the two-point area. The ball continues in flight and goes through A's basket. RULING: In (a) and (b), three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense and the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line. In (c), score three points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred behind the three-point line. In (d), score two points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred in the two-point area.


5-2-1 and 5.2.1 Situation C both allow a try from behind the three point arc to be deflected/blocked by a defender inside the three point arc and yet still count as three points. That's why the rule lists a ball that touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, and an official as subsequently counting two points, but doesn't list a defender inside the arc, written to allow such a deflected/blocked shot to count as three points.

johnny d's citation appears to be the "gold standard" in this situation.

4.41.4 - Situation B: A1’s three-point try is short and below ring level when it hits the shoulder of: (a) A2; or (b) B1 and rebounds to the backboard and through the basket. Ruling: The three-point try ended when it was obviously short and below the ring. However, since a live ball went through the basket, two points are scored in both (a) and (b). (5-1)

Thanks guys. The title of this thread was "Fun With Two Or Three Points" and not only was it fun, it was also educational.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Wed May 19, 2021 at 12:44pm.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 19, 2021, 10:10am
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 23,378
Floor, Official ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
5-2-1: A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who is located behind the team’s own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three points. A ball that touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, an official, or any other goal from the field counts two points for the team into whose basket the ball is thrown.
Just to be clear, only two points if the ball touches the floor, or an official, inside, or outside the arc. Right?
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Wed May 19, 2021 at 12:51pm.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 19, 2021, 10:23am
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 23,378
Just For Fun ...

Center A2, the tallest player in the league, sets a ball screen for point guard A1, the shortest player in the league. Both A1 and A2 are outside the three point arc. Because of the great screen, A1 finds himself undefended for a split second and attempts a three point try, however, after A1 releases the try, the ball (on the way up) strikes A2 in the head. The ball awkwardly ricochets high into the air, and subsequently passes through the basket.

Two points, or three points? Is this like the alley-oop pass? And remember, the teammate, A2, is outside (not inside) the arc.

Easy extra credit: Same thing, but horn to end period sounds after the ball ricochets off A2's head, but before the ball enters the basket?
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Wed May 19, 2021 at 01:16pm.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 19, 2021, 11:04am
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 30,557
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Center A2, the tallest player in the league, sets a ball screen for point guard A1, the shortest player in the league. Both A1 and A2 are outside the three point arc. Because of the great screen, A1 finds himself undefended for a split second and attempts a three point try, however, after A1 releases the try, the ball strikes A2 on the top of his head. The ball awkwardly ricochets high into the air, and subsequently passes through the basket.

Two points, or three points? Is this like the alley-oop pass? And remember, the teammate, A2, is outside (not inside) the arc.

Easy extra credit: Same thing, but horn to end period sounds after the ball ricochets off A2's head, but before the ball enters the basket?
If the ball hit the head of A2 and he was clearly not anywhere near the basket then I believe it should be ruled a 2.

The basket on the extra credit would not count because the try was over when it hit A2 on top of the head. Clearly, they are not shooting the ball or the shot is over at that point.

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 19, 2021, 11:23am
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 23,378
Pondering ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
The basket on the extra credit would not count because the try was over when it hit A2 on top of the head.
Agree.

4-41-4: The try ends when the throw is successful, when it is certain the throw is unsuccessful, when the thrown ball touches the floor or when the ball becomes dead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
If the ball hit the head of A2 and he was clearly not anywhere near the basket then I believe it should be ruled a 2.
Won't agree, or disagree with you. I didn't have a prepared answer. I need to ponder it a while more.

Not sure what being "near the basket" has to do with the situation? To be clear, while A2 was not anywhere near the basket, neither was A1, they were both outside the three point arc. The disparity in the heights of both players and the closeness of shooter A1 to his screener, put screener A2's head in the way of the "normal" upward trajectory of A1's three point attempt.

While we allow a successful three point try, and a successful three point pass (alley-oop), do we allow a "successful" three point defection?
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Wed May 19, 2021 at 12:35pm.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 19, 2021, 01:36pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 23,378
Possible ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Center A2, the tallest player in the league, sets a ball screen for point guard A1, the shortest player in the league. Both A1 and A2 are outside the three point arc. Because of the great screen, A1 finds himself undefended for a split second and attempts a three point try, however, after A1 releases the try, the ball (on the way up) strikes A2 in the head. The ball awkwardly ricochets high into the air, and subsequently passes through the basket. Two points, or three points? Is this like the alley-oop pass? And remember, the teammate, A2, is outside (not inside) the arc. Easy extra credit: Same thing, but horn to end period sounds after the ball ricochets off A2's head, but before the ball enters the basket?
If we're not counting anything if the horn sounds before the ball enters the basket, then is it possible that we shouldn't score three points (just two) on the defection (everybody behind the arc) that enters the basket before the horn sounds?

Or do they not have anything to do with each other?
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Wed May 19, 2021 at 01:41pm.
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 19, 2021, 01:40pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 23,378
Riddle Me This ...

With 0:04 left in the second quarter, B1 has the ball on the left wing in Team B’s frontcourt, standing behind the three point arc. B5 makes a back door cut toward the basket. B1 passes the ball toward the ring and B5 leaps for the potential alley-oop dunk. The horn to end the period sounds before the ball enters and passes through the goal directly from B1’s pass and is not touched by B5.

What's the call? It's a pass, not a try, but do we treat it as a "Bootylicious" try?
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Wed May 19, 2021 at 02:03pm.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:07pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1