Fun With Two Or Three Points ...

[Rich]

Billy's right.

Like it or not, by rule this is a 3-point basket.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[JRutledge]

What is the intent and purpose of the rule? That is the answer.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

What is the intent and purpose of the rule? That is the answer.



Peace

The word throw is in the damned rule.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rich

The word throw is in the damned rule.

I understand all of that, but what was the intent of the rule when they changed this? What were the examples they gave?

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

What is the intent and purpose of the rule?

Initially, JRutledge would be correct.

But that was over thirty years go, back when Whitney Houston's "How Will I Know" was a big hit, but interpretations have changed over that length of time, and Miss Houston is no longer with us.

Read the rule, read the casebook play.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Initially, JRutledge would be correct.

But that was over thirty years go, back when Whitney Houston's "How Will I Know" was a big hit, but interpretations have changed over that length of time.

Read the rule, read the casebook play.

I did read the rule and the casebook. And I was around when this interpretation changed. It was always meant for an alley-opp kind of pass that happened to go in the basket. Just like I asked the NCAA Editor about their backcourt rule and the casebook and all interpretations said a play that happened in the WVU-Gonzaga game early in the season. And it took me (I am sure someone else contacted them but they did respond) to realize that the rule they had written did not cover a situation that happened in that game. Even Art Hyland told me this in an email and said that the intent and purpose of the rule was to not cover a situation where the ball is deflected in the backcourt when the rule says only the frontcourt the rule applies.


Only #1 Play.


According to the NCAA Rule, is a backcourt violation because there is no mention of a deflection from the backcourt that results in touch to the frontcourt. But after further review, the Rules Editor had to realize that they did not think of every possible situation and put something out to make clear that this should not be a violation. I feel like the very same thing is happening in this video you posted Billy. The ball was not going anywhere near the basket and was clearly altered to go up to the basket.

It really does not matter, because this is not a common thing. But I am not giving 3 points if I am the ruling official.

Peace

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Rich

Billy's right.

Like it or not, by rule this is a 3-point basket.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Nope, he’s dead wrong and so are you.
The different case play in which the thrown ball is well below the level of the ring and strikes a defender’s shoulder then bounces up and into the goal is the proper citation. That ruling is a two-point goal.
As Rut writes, the action shown in the video is not what is intended by or under the purview of the rule and/or case play cited by Billy.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Nope, he’s dead wrong and so are you.
The different case play in which the thrown ball is well below the level of the ring and strikes a defender’s shoulder then bounces up and into the goal is the proper citation. That ruling is a two-point goal.
As Rut writes, the action shown in the video is not what is intended by or under the purview or the rule and/or case play cited by Billy.

Not the first time I was wrong. At least someone found a case play.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

... action shown in the video is not what is intended by or under the purview or the rule and/or case play cited by Billy.

I think that I figured out the intent of the rule/case play I cited.

5-2-1: A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who is located behind the team’s own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three points. A ball that touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, an official, or any other goal from the field counts two points for the team into whose basket the ball is thrown.

5.2.1 SITUATION C: A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line. The ball is legally touched by: (a) B1 who is in the three-point area; (b) B1 who is in the two-point area; (c) A2 who is in the three-point area; or (d) A2 who is in the two-point area. The ball continues in flight and goes through A's basket. RULING: In (a) and (b), three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense and the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line. In (c), score three points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred behind the three-point line. In (d), score two points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred in the two-point area.

5-2-1 and 5.2.1 Situation C both allow a try from behind the three point arc to be deflected/blocked by a defender inside the three point arc and yet still count as three points. That's why the rule lists a ball that touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, and an official as subsequently counting two points, but doesn't list a defender inside the arc, written to allow such a deflected/blocked shot to count as three points.

johnny d's citation appears to be the "gold standard" in this situation.

4.41.4 - Situation B: A1’s three-point try is short and below ring level when it hits the shoulder of: (a) A2; or (b) B1 and rebounds to the backboard and through the basket. Ruling: The three-point try ended when it was obviously short and below the ring. However, since a live ball went through the basket, two points are scored in both (a) and (b). (5-1)

Thanks guys. The title of this thread was "Fun With Two Or Three Points" and not only was it fun, it was also educational.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

5-2-1: A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who is located behind the team’s own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three points. A ball that touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, an official, or any other goal from the field counts two points for the team into whose basket the ball is thrown.

Just to be clear, only two points if the ball touches the floor, or an official, inside, or outside the arc. Right?

[BillyMac]

Center A2, the tallest player in the league, sets a ball screen for point guard A1, the shortest player in the league. Both A1 and A2 are outside the three point arc. Because of the great screen, A1 finds himself undefended for a split second and attempts a three point try, however, after A1 releases the try, the ball (on the way up) strikes A2 in the head. The ball awkwardly ricochets high into the air, and subsequently passes through the basket.

Two points, or three points? Is this like the alley-oop pass? And remember, the teammate, A2, is outside (not inside) the arc.

Easy extra credit: Same thing, but horn to end period sounds after the ball ricochets off A2's head, but before the ball enters the basket?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Center A2, the tallest player in the league, sets a ball screen for point guard A1, the shortest player in the league. Both A1 and A2 are outside the three point arc. Because of the great screen, A1 finds himself undefended for a split second and attempts a three point try, however, after A1 releases the try, the ball strikes A2 on the top of his head. The ball awkwardly ricochets high into the air, and subsequently passes through the basket.

Two points, or three points? Is this like the alley-oop pass? And remember, the teammate, A2, is outside (not inside) the arc.

Easy extra credit: Same thing, but horn to end period sounds after the ball ricochets off A2's head, but before the ball enters the basket?

If the ball hit the head of A2 and he was clearly not anywhere near the basket then I believe it should be ruled a 2.

The basket on the extra credit would not count because the try was over when it hit A2 on top of the head. Clearly, they are not shooting the ball or the shot is over at that point.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The basket on the extra credit would not count because the try was over when it hit A2 on top of the head.

Agree.

4-41-4: The try ends when the throw is successful, when it is certain the throw is unsuccessful, when the thrown ball touches the floor or when the ball becomes dead.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If the ball hit the head of A2 and he was clearly not anywhere near the basket then I believe it should be ruled a 2.

Won't agree, or disagree with you. I didn't have a prepared answer. I need to ponder it a while more.

Not sure what being "near the basket" has to do with the situation? To be clear, while A2 was not anywhere near the basket, neither was A1, they were both outside the three point arc. The disparity in the heights of both players and the closeness of shooter A1 to his screener, put screener A2's head in the way of the "normal" upward trajectory of A1's three point attempt.

While we allow a successful three point try, and a successful three point pass (alley-oop), do we allow a "successful" three point defection?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Center A2, the tallest player in the league, sets a ball screen for point guard A1, the shortest player in the league. Both A1 and A2 are outside the three point arc. Because of the great screen, A1 finds himself undefended for a split second and attempts a three point try, however, after A1 releases the try, the ball (on the way up) strikes A2 in the head. The ball awkwardly ricochets high into the air, and subsequently passes through the basket. Two points, or three points? Is this like the alley-oop pass? And remember, the teammate, A2, is outside (not inside) the arc. Easy extra credit: Same thing, but horn to end period sounds after the ball ricochets off A2's head, but before the ball enters the basket?

If we're not counting anything if the horn sounds before the ball enters the basket, then is it possible that we shouldn't score three points (just two) on the defection (everybody behind the arc) that enters the basket before the horn sounds?

Or do they not have anything to do with each other?

[BillyMac]

With 0:04 left in the second quarter, B1 has the ball on the left wing in Team B’s frontcourt, standing behind the three point arc. B5 makes a back door cut toward the basket. B1 passes the ball toward the ring and B5 leaps for the potential alley-oop dunk. The horn to end the period sounds before the ball enters and passes through the goal directly from B1’s pass and is not touched by B5.

What's the call? It's a pass, not a try, but do we treat it as a "Bootylicious" try?