Women Refs in the NBA

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

...

On a different note, I am on board with good female officials advancing. The problem is when they are promoted because they are female rather than due to ability.

People have been getting promoted within the officiating ranks, as well as denied advancement, for reasons other than their ability or competency for decades upon decades.

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[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Raymond

People have been getting promoted within the officiating ranks, as well as denied advancement, for reasons other than their ability or competency for decades upon decades.

Exactly, not sure why people are upset now? Most officials that get hired by a lot of other reasons at all levels. Nothing new, but when it only benefited certain people it was not a problem. IJS.

Peace

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Exactly, not sure why people are upset now? Most officials that get hired by a lot of other reasons at all levels. Nothing new, but when it only benefited certain people it was not a problem. IJS.

Peace

Men’s college officials certainly have no room to complain about women getting opportunities at other levels/genders.

People that don’t realize officiating is not a pure meritocracy have been living in the weeds.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SC Official

Men’s college officials certainly have no room to complain about women getting opportunities at other levels/genders.

People that don’t realize officiating is not a pure meritocracy have been living in the weeds.

This is not a Men's college issue with what women work Men's college basketball. There are other issue with Men's college basketball and it is not the amount of women getting those opportunities.

Peace

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

This is not a Men's college issue with what women work Men's college basketball. There are other issue with Men's college basketball and it is not the amount of women getting those opportunities.

Peace

In case you didn't realize, I was actually agreeing with you.

And there still are not that many women in men's college basketball. Only two work a significant amount of Division 1. And honestly, why would any woman with talent go the men's route when the money is the same on the women's side and the opportunities are so much more vast?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by SC Official

... why would any woman with talent go the men's route when the money is the same on the women's side and the opportunities are so much more vast?

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... like the challenge and so do others.

[Player989random]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I've met a woman or two who thought there was a glass ceiling to break, but I've also met a lot more D1 women (and men) who said the main reason not to do men's was "Why work 5 years in D2/D3 when I can make D1 in 2-3?"

Honestly, would you apply to work at a job with an uncertain promotion rate and pays you in $100s while another job with similar skills is giving anyone with a modicum of interest and talent $1000s?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SC Official

In case you didn't realize, I was actually agreeing with you.

And there still are not that many women in men's college basketball. Only two work a significant amount of Division 1. And honestly, why would any woman with talent go the men's route when the money is the same on the women's side and the opportunities are so much more vast?

Didn't say you were disagreeing with me. Just stating that the issue is not specific to one side or the other. I am just addressing that there are many officials that are around that look different than the actual players getting high-level opportunities. I was making a larger point, not just about gender. Sorry for the confusion.

Peace

[RefRich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Exactly, not sure why people are upset now? Most officials that get hired by a lot of other reasons at all levels. Nothing new, but when it only benefited certain people it was not a problem. IJS.

Peace

When I first started refereeing in PA, I was told by an AD, "I wasn't experienced enough." I had been working in the state of IN for 5 years and transferred by license to PA. He pointed out the two varsity officials and said like these guys. One he was old friends with and had about 15 or more years in, the other guy was my age and had been officiating 2 years. I looked at him and said, "yep, got to have that experience." I never worked another game for him at any level. Once he was gone, I was good to go.

Favoritism has been around since people have been around. It never ceases to amaze me people think it only occurs when it's a minority getting an early opportunity.

[ilyazhito]

I don't think that favoritism occurs only with respect to minorities getting early opportunities. That said, there should be a line between recruiting and supporting minority officials, and promoting minority officials solely because of that status (without reference to criteria such as evaluations, camp attendance, varsity/playoff experience, etc.). Favoritism occurs in other contexts as well (nepotism is quite common in officiating), and probably is there to stay, whether we like it or not. That said, I would be willing to work with any official good enough to do the job, whether they be male, female, or extraterrestrial.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

I don't think that favoritism occurs only with respect to minorities getting early opportunities. That said, there should be a line between recruiting and supporting minority officials, and promoting minority officials solely because of that status (without reference to criteria such as evaluations, camp attendance, varsity/playoff experience, etc.)...

Again, people have been and still are getting ahead that way. Examples of criteria that trumped what I or others did on the court:

-- in a position to award an intramural contract
-- grew up and went to school with a prominent local official
-- played softball
-- worked in a certain profession in their full-time job
-- worked for a certain employer
-- able to provide a business service to the association

And those criteria most often involved people who looked like the person making the decisions because they came from the same circles and backgrounds.

But discussions about "drawing a line" are only brought up when the criteria may be related to demographics.

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Examples of criteria ...

- A star high school, or college basketball player, with a name recognized and well known in the state.

- Originally from the local area, with a social, or professional, network already in place.

It wouldn't be with a bullet, but I probably would have moved up the ladder a little faster if I hadn't moved all the way across the state before I became an official; away from my high school teammates, friends, coaches, teachers, neighbors, etc., several who became basketball officials. When I first started, I could count the people that I already knew on my local board on the fingers of one hand.

[JRutledge]

I also moved from the original area to a new area. I went to everyone's camp to get noticed and got opportunities when I worked harder than others. And still there were guys that got opportunities simply because of who the grew up with or that their dad was also an official all over the place. I still got to some places but no one just gave it to me either. And I was willing to do things that others were not willing to do. I know many people that were not willing to go to uncomfortable situations at all. They stuck to where they were and they had more success. It was just hard to miss because I was willing to go everywhere.

Peace

[RefRich]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

- A star high school, or college basketball player, with a name recognized and well known in the state.

- Originally from the local area, with a social, or professional, network already in place.

It wouldn't be with a bullet, but I probably would have moved up the ladder a little faster if I hadn't moved all the way across the state before I became an official; away from my high school and college friends, several who became basketball officials. When I first started, I could count the people that I already knew on my local board on the fingers of one hand.

This was me. I knew everyone back home and was already getting varsity games in my local area after 5 years, this was back in 1991. Once I moved and didn't know anybody, I virtually had to start all over.

This was back when most of the AD's scheduled their own officials and I was the new young punk who wanted to move up too fast and needed to learn his place.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by RefRich

When I first started refereeing in PA, I was told by an AD, "I wasn't experienced enough." I had been working in the state of IN for 5 years and transferred by license to PA. He pointed out the two varsity officials and said like these guys. One he was old friends with and had about 15 or more years in, the other guy was my age and had been officiating 2 years. I looked at him and said, "yep, got to have that experience." I never worked another game for him at any level. Once he was gone, I was good to go.

Favoritism has been around since people have been around. It never ceases to amaze me people think it only occurs when it's a minority getting an early opportunity.

There is a major conference in this country that hired officials that either had graduated from one of the schools in the conference or had direct ties of coaching or playing with individuals in that conference. And I am not at all talking about basketball. Look at the NFL and see how many sons of former NFL officials there are working? And for the record, there are not women or Black guys in those situations. And football is a sport that literally does not have the camp system or evaluation system that basketball has to evaluate you onsite or during games. Football is often a recommendation or someone that is in power asking you to work college football.

I worked D1 baseball for a very brief time and the only reason I got my first game at that level was because I worked a basketball game with a person that is at the time a Minor League Baseball Umpire. That person is now at the MLB level for several years now. That person worked a basketball game with me in like December, we got along very well. That spring the Minor League Umpire's Union went on strike and many of the those umpires were working college games to get some games and income. Well this official could not work the Sunday of a series and he called the assignor and gave him my name and I worked my first D1 baseball game as a result. That D1 Baseball supervisor was also the basketball supervisor of that very same conference and even did not charge me to go to his camp before he was fired from both positions a few years later. I had a window then to maybe get looked at seriously at the D1 level and all of it was because my original relationship with a guy that is now an MLB Umpire and I just happened to get along with him and had a side conversation about my baseball background. He never saw me work a single baseball game. I benefited from a nice interaction from a person moving up the ladder and having the right contacts. That is how many people get opportunities at all levels of officiating.

Peace