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  #76 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 26, 2021, 04:37pm
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Wow ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
This is a high school game and part of the DVD series two years after the POE you keep referencing.
Wow. Big kids. I just assumed that Howard and Samford (thought they were both HBC's) were colleges playing a neutral site game in Delaware.

Years ago we used to have HBC's from the South (Virginia State University and Hampton University) come up here to Connecticut to play neutral site games, at least once a year. Big crowds. Great basketball. Not sure which NCAA division.

So how bad were my calls in this high school game?

Too bad the video didn't show a classic swinging elbow (excessive, or not) striking the head contact. I'd like to see that in a high school, from eight years ago, or from a more recent game.
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“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Apr 27, 2021 at 09:48am.
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  #77 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 26, 2021, 07:53pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Wow. Big kids. I just assumed that Howard and Sanford (thought they were both HBC's) were colleges playing a neutral site game in Delaware.

Years ago we used to have HBC's from the Southeast come up here to Connecticut to play neutral site games, at least once a year. Big crowds. Great basketball. Not sure which NCAA division.

So how bad were my calls in this high school game?

Too bad the video didn't show a classic swinging elbow (excessive, or not) striking the head contact. I'd like to see that in a high school, from eight years ago, or from a more recent game.
What are HBC's?

And you said you knew what I was referring to and you think this is a college game? Does IAABO put out content specifically for college?

Peace
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Last edited by JRutledge; Mon Apr 26, 2021 at 08:06pm.
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  #78 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 27, 2021, 08:55am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
What are HBC's?
Historically black colleges. I may be behind the times, I believe that they're now called historically black colleges and universities. I'm sure that Howard is, not sure about Samford.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Does IAABO put out content specifically for college?
Yes, absolutely, always with separate NCAAM and NCAAW content. We always get it in our monthly Inside the Lines bulletins, our bi-monthly Sportorials magazines, our International Fall Seminars, and also in our recent COVID online Zoom presentations.

From our very recent IAABO Executive Director's Annual Report: IAABO continues to create a separate handbook for Canada that contains FIBA rules and interpretations, including a handbook … and other instructional materials for the FIBA rule changes. Periodic quizzes have been prepared for our international members and have been well received. During the course of this year, we were able to complete the terms of our agreement with CBOA to establish the Men’s Collegiate Board 800. Concurrent with that agreement, we were also successful in establishing Board 801 for the Women’s Collegiate Basketball Officials Organization (WCBOO). The addition of these two boards now allows IAABO to service members interested in NFHS, Men’s Collegiate, Women’s Collegiate and the International games. Efforts are being made to include all videos, quizzes and training materials for all four sets of rules.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
... IAABO is now branching out (outside of the NFHS) to include FIBA (Canada), NCAA men's basketball, and NCAA women's basketball, a diversification strategy that I fear will dilute the product of what IAABO has always done best, training high school basketball officials.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
And you said you knew what I was referring to and you think this is a college game?
Since well before the technological expansion of high school video, IAABO has often used video of college games to demonstrate, or explain, principles of high school rules, interpretations, and/or mechanics, which has continued (though somewhat decreased) up to and including recent times. Often, but not always, there will be some type of introductory statement, almost always live by the presenter, anybody from a local interpreter, up to to international seminar presenter, that what we're viewing on the video is a college game, but that we can still learn about high school rules, interpretations, and/or mechanics, from the video, and video play commentary.

It is for this reason, as well as the school names on the jerseys, as well as the degree of physical maturity and size of the players, that I believed that this was a video of a college game, despite also knowing that some high school games (state tournament late round games) are played on college basketball sites (in this case the University of Delaware).

JRutledge: Are you 100% positive that this is a high school game?
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Apr 27, 2021 at 09:52am.
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  #79 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 27, 2021, 10:00am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Historically black colleges. I may be behind the times, I believe that they're now called historically black colleges and universities. I'm sure that Howard is, not sure about Samford.
They are referred to as HBCU (Historically Black Colleges and Universities). I have several family members that attended them, my mom was one of them who attended FAMU.

Howard is a University that is an HBCU. Samford is a Christian school, which was ironically first-named Howard College.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Yes, absolutely, always with separate NCAAM and NCAAW content. We always get it in our monthly Inside the Lines bulletins, our bi-monthly Sportorials magazines, our International Fall Seminars, and also in our recent COVID online Zoom presentations.
Well, they don't as it is related to the NASO product line. Not sure why or if they care, but this was part of their "You Make the Ruling" Videos and all that content is high school-related. The NCAA puts out their own content through NASO or through Arbiter mainly when it comes to videos.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
JRutledge: Are you 100% positive that this is a high school game?
Honestly, it does not matter because IAABO never discusses NCAA Rules or CCA Mechanics. So it is not a high school game, they are selling it as one for the purposes of these plays. Again, this was a high school video series, if it is not a high school game they certainly are not talking all throughout the video as such. Again this is your organization, you should know what they are using better than me. So if this happened a couple of years after the POE which you love to tell me has to be followed, then they certainly did not mention this. Also, college has provisions for elbow contact but again they have when it should apply and when it should not apply to a Flagrant Foul (different terminology). The voice-over never addressed this at all.

On another note, the players look nothing like college players to me in either size or look. I do not see a kid taller than 6'2 or 6'3 on the floor, including the players in the post where the foul was called. Neither does the calling official look like a college official in this play, he looks like a high school official, especially with the way he called the foul. But that is just my take.

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Last edited by JRutledge; Tue Apr 27, 2021 at 10:10am.
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  #80 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 27, 2021, 11:27am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
They are referred to as HBCU (Historically Black Colleges and Universities). I have several family members that attended them, my mom was one of them who attended FAMU.
Go Lady Rattlers. To show how New England white I am, other than viewing television commercials for the United Negro College Fund (“A mind is a terrible thing to waste”), I never knew much about historically Black colleges and universities until fictional television character Denise Huxtable left Brooklyn to attend Hillman College, a fictional historically Black college.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
IAABO never discusses NCAA Rules or CCA Mechanics.
Certainly true for the first ninety-five years of IAABO, not true for the past five years. 2021 IAABO is not your father's Oldsmobile.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
... not a high school game they certainly are not talking all throughout the video as such.
As I stated, almost all introductory statements that what we're viewing on video is actually a college game are offered live and in person by the presenter, anybody from a local interpreter, up to to international seminar presenter, such statements seldom show up in the video.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
The voice-over never addressed this at all.
Nor did the written IAABO play commentary of the recent Make The Call Video, however, as recently as January, 2021 IAABO did broach the POE subject in the IAABO play commentary of another Make The Call Video.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
What changed in three months?
The NFHS Rules Committee meeting.

IAABO had a seat at the table of the recent three day NFHS Rules Committee meeting where the contact above the shoulders controversy was discussed. The NFHS will soon clarify the position of the NFHS regarding such contact. We don't know what that clarification will be, but maybe the change over the past three months from IAABO supporting the POE to IAABO ignoring the POE is a signal that this POE will be invalidated, or simply treated as just a "guideline" rather than as an automatic hard-fast rule. This IAABO change in philosophy over the past three months signals to me that the NFHS will probably not continue with the POE in it's current form.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
... you love to tell me has to be followed ...
Due to it's controversial nature, I haven't held anyone to that standard for several years, but I will discuss reasons why it may no longer be valid, as well as reasons why it may still be valid. For me personally, I use it as a guideline, and while it causes me to pause to think (purpose and intent of POE) about a possible upgrade, it's not an automatic "must do" rule for me. My philosophy is that just because we can upgrade to intentional fouls or flagrant fouls doesn't necessarily mean that we have to (as the POE mandates). If, for whatever reason, one decides to upgrade, the POE will provide some written backing above and beyond existing definitions of intentional fouls and flagrant fouls, if necessary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
... the players look nothing like college players to me in either size or look ... the calling official ... looks like a high school official ... But that is just my take.
No problem with that opinion, it's still a good video if the visual part of the video is a high school game, or a college game, as long as the play commentary audio part of the video is high school based (assuming the audience is interested in such).

__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Wed Apr 28, 2021 at 10:02am.
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  #81 (permalink)  
Old Sat May 01, 2021, 02:24pm
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Old Interpretations ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
I did reply to their reply with a followup question regarding the "Interpretation" thread from a few days ago (what happens to old interpretations no longer in the casebook, or annual interpretations that never make their way into the casebook). I specifically asked about the vanished "player on the floor" casebook interpretation, and the "estimated time" one-and-done annual interpretation, but I also asked about vanishing/disappearing interpretations in general. I'll let everyone know if and when I get a reply.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Still waiting for IAABO's reply to vanishing/disappearing interpretations.
From IAABO Co-Coordinators of Interpreters:

We’ve certainly discussed the points you bring.

We (co-coordinators) all believe that it’s fair & reasonable to share your questions and concerns with the NFHS, to 1) get an answer and 2) possibly spur action on cataloging all interpretations, electronically for longevity sake.

Personally, pending different guidance from the NFHS, I feel, like you, that past interpretations are still in effect even if they’re not in the “current” casebook, unless replaced or changed. And as you noted, that makes the teaching of a rule dependent on 1) someone’s historical knowledge and 2) someone else “believing” that historical knowledge!

Thanks for your keen rules knowledge and historical perspective!


At their suggestion, I've forwarded my "old interpretation" concerns to Theresia D. Wynns, Editor, NFHS Publications, National Federation of State High School Associations:

Ms. Wynns,

IAABO Co-Coordinators of Interpreters suggested that I forward this email to you regarding questions about old interpretations and annual interpretations because you would be in the best position to accurately answer them.

Are old interpretations (casebook or annual), not in the current NFHS casebook, still fully valid as long as newer relevant rule changes and/or newer relevant interpretations haven’t invalidated such old interpretations?

Shouldn’t deleted interpretations be announced in some manner, possibly announced with a rationale for the deletion?

I included some specific examples, the "player on the floor" casebook interpretation, and the "estimated time" one-and-done annual interpretation.

I'll let everyone know if and when I get a reply.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
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  #82 (permalink)  
Old Sat May 01, 2021, 05:06pm
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Hope Springs Eternal ...

From another IAABO Co-Coordinator of Interpreters:

I will send an email request to the NFHS on Monday morning, asking for guidance with regard to the status and relevance of Case Book plays, interpretations, and POE that no longer appear in print. I will ask if there might be some document that exists or could be created that would enable members (or at least state interpreters) to review updated information. As soon as I hear back from the NFHS I will let you know. Thanks again, great points & perspective!
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
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