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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 22, 2021, 06:43pm
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I see nothing that really looks like a PC foul or can tell how much displacement there was. The angle they picked was not conducive for supporting this foul.

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 22, 2021, 11:02pm
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1. Clear travel upon catching the ball.
2. Likely illegal contact by the defender, but I can understand letting it go.
3. However, if one is going to pass on the contact by the defender, it is harsh to not allow the offensive player to push back. Coming up with a PC here is not ideal.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 23, 2021, 02:40am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
1. Clear travel upon catching the ball.
2. Likely illegal contact by the defender, but I can understand letting it go.
3. However, if one is going to pass on the contact by the defender, it is harsh to not allow the offensive player to push back. Coming up with a PC here is not ideal.
I didn't see it initially, but the offensive player's arm/elbow was under the defenders chin then upside her head. Hard to ignore that one....it was escalating it to the next level.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 23, 2021, 07:25am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
1. Clear travel upon catching the ball.

...
There is no way for the official to see the ball and be able to rule a travel or not. I called a blind travel once in a college game only to have the video show that the player did not have possession of the ball.


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Last edited by Raymond; Fri Apr 23, 2021 at 11:11am.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 23, 2021, 09:32am
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Blind Travel ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Black #10 traveled before the contact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Through no fault of her own, if she hadn't gotten jammed between the two players and the coach and his bench she may have had a wider, more open look to see the travel. At one point she had to take a step around the coach (who was legally in his coaching box).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
There is no way for the official to see the ball and be able to rule a travel or not. I called a blind travel once in a college game only to have the video so that the player did not have possession of the ball.
Even though I pointed out the travel in my initial comment (for educational purposes, not to criticize the official), she gets a pass from me on missing the travel.

Not only was she jammed up against the coach, but she was also straight-lined by ball handler in such a way that the official doesn't get a good look at the initial possession of the ball, as Raymond commented.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
Clear travel upon catching the ball.
Nevadaref probably meant "clear" from the video viewer's angle. That's how I called the travel, and it was quite clear to me, but not clear from the viewpoint of the official.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Apr 23, 2021 at 12:37pm.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 23, 2021, 09:36am
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Simple Player Control Foul ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
I didn't see it initially, but the offensive player's arm/elbow was under the defenders chin then upside her head. Hard to ignore that one ...
That was the player control foul I wanted called, and I would prefer to not go down the "contact above the shoulders" rabbit hole.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I see nothing that really looks like a PC foul or can tell how much displacement there was ..
Watch White #1's head snap back after being elbowed, there's your displacement.

OK, "snap" is hyperbole, more of a "move" back.

Anytime a moving elbow contacts a player in the head, a foul (of some type) should to be charged.

Of course, a player moving toward and contacting a stationary elbow is another story for another time.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Apr 23, 2021 at 10:36am.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 23, 2021, 11:10am
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At the 40 second mark of the video, the offensive player's arm is clearly fully extended to push off the defender. If it was just the chicken wing as the coach is suggesting then I could see a no call.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 23, 2021, 12:40pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Watch White #1's head snap back after being elbowed, there's your displacement.

OK, "snap" is hyperbole, more of a "move" back.

Anytime a moving elbow contacts a player in the head, a foul (of some type) should to be charged.

Of course, a player moving toward and contacting a stationary elbow is another story for another time.
I see no such contact or even snap back as you stated. I see nothing because the angle shows nothing clear. If we had the angle of the court that was first shown maybe then you are right but this angle was not an angle I would make such a call. So we are guessing at this point. I see no clear contact to the face or head in any way either based on this angle, so that was not what I was referencing.

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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 23, 2021, 12:46pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
I didn't see it initially, but the offensive player's arm/elbow was under the defenders chin then upside her head. Hard to ignore that one....it was escalating it to the next level.
And that is why the contact that the defender caused from behind and while sticking her arm into the mix warranted a whistle first. I’ve never been comfortable calling the second foul which is in response to contact I just allowed.
It feels unjust.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 23, 2021, 01:06pm
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Head Tilts Back ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I see no such contact ... I see no clear contact to the face or head in any way
Check out 11, 32, and 39 second mark. Ball handler's left arm/elbow, as it moves upward, contacts defender's left neck, cheek, and face (in that order). Ball handler's pony tail partly obscures the contact, but one can still see the contact in small unobscured space between the arm/elbow/neck/cheek/face on the left and the pony tail on the right. Defender's head "tilts" (I exaggerated by using the word "snap") up and back as a result of said upper movement contact to her neck, cheek, and face.

Anytime a moving elbow contacts a player in the head, a foul (of some type) should to be charged.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 23, 2021, 01:24pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Check out 11, 32, and 39 second mark. Ball handler's left arm/elbow, as it moves upward, contacts defender's left neck, cheek, and face (in that order). Ball handler's pony tail partly obscures the contact, but one can still see the contact in small unobscured space between the arm/elbow/neck/cheek/face on the left and the pony tail on the right. Defender's head "tilts" (I exaggerated by using the word "snap") up and back as a result of said upper movement contact to her neck, cheek, and face.
I do not know why you keep thinking that I have not watched this video several times. I watch a lot more video than most people and I see nothing that stands out that states that there was such contact that would warrant a foul. Again, it is about the angle. I would not make that call from the endline if I was there, so why would I say this is what she saw or why she made the call? Again, all contact is not a foul. This contact that you say is there does not clearly move the player from the angle we have and unless you just want to look like a girl's official, call that. Because nothing I saw is clear as to what if any contact took place. Also, was there contact before by the defender? I cannot tell, which would influence what I call.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Anytime a moving elbow contacts a player in the head, a foul (of some type) should to be charged.
Then you are going to call a lot of BS that did nothing to either player.

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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 23, 2021, 01:37pm
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Three Contacts Passed On Don't Necessarily Make A Right ...

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Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
And that is why the contact that the defender caused from behind and while sticking her arm into the mix warranted a whistle first. I’ve never been comfortable calling the second foul which is in response to contact I just allowed. It feels unjust.
I see no illegal body contact by the defender, she stops on a dime just short of contact and doesn't move forward, all the incidental body contact is initiated by the pivoting (once she finally decides on a pivot foot) ball handler. But this is a subjective judgment call that Nevadaref has a right to question.

Nevadaref is correct in that the defender complicates things by adding her right arm into the mix, but I see no illegal arm contact. Again, this is a subjective judgment call that Nevadaref has a right to question.

Allowing incidental body contact, or allowing arm contact not putting the ball handler at a disadvantage, shouldn't subsequently be used as a rationale by an official to automatically pass (as just) on a player who responds to one, or two, slight incidental contacts with a subsequent contact to the head (it wasn't a knockout punch, but it wasn't slight either).

Three contacts passed on don't necessarily make a right. Anytime a moving elbow, not just a touch, but an elbow moving fast enough that it can move, even slightly, a opponent's head, contacts a player in the head, a foul (not going down the "contact above the shoulders" Point of Emphasis rabbit hole, I believe that "only" a player control foul was appropriate here) should to be charged. Also another subjective judgment call that Nevadaref has a right to question.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sat Apr 24, 2021 at 08:36am.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 23, 2021, 02:17pm
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Moving The Goalposts Again ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
... a moving elbow contacts a player in the head ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I see no such contact ... see no clear contact to the face or head in any way ... to what if any contact took place ... I see nothing ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
... there was such contact that would warrant a foul ... all contact is not a foul. This contact that you say is there does not clearly move the player ...
It's difficult to professionally discuss and debate with JRutledge when he keeps moving the goalposts.

In one post he states that there is "no such contact" replying to the "moving elbow contacts a player in the head" contact reference that I had described in an earlier post. And he followups with that he sees "no clear contact to the face or head in any way". Pretty strong words, "in any way". Also, "I see nothing".

That's why I asked him to take another look at the video, pointing out certain things to look for to see the contact that he opined never occurred.

In another post he states that there is "no such contact that would warrant a foul", following up with "all contact is not a foul" (that I, in general, agree with), both of his statements implying that there was indeed contact, but that it wasn't a foul (which can professionally discussed and debated).

Since JRutledge can't seem to decide if there was "no" contact, or that there was contact but that it wasn't contact that would "warrant a foul" (I can't see an admission of no contact as entertaining a discussion of whether or not a foul was warranted, no contact always equals no foul (technical foul exceptions), no discussion needed; I'll only address his second point (that there was contact, but it didn't warrant a foul).

I really don't want to go down the "contact above the shoulders" Point of Emphasis rabbit hole, so I'm ignoring all possibilities of intentional or flagrant fouls, but anytime a moving elbow, not just a touch, but an elbow moving fast enough that it can move, even slightly, a opponent's head, contacts a player in the head, a foul (of some type) should to be charged. I believe that "only" a player control foul was appropriate here. But certainly a subjective judgment call that JRutledge has a right to question.

Was there no contact, or was there contact that didn't warrant a foul? As to the former, the video shows (not clearly, it takes some careful study) there was contact. The later is professionally debatable if one choses to ignore the "contact above the shoulders" Point of Emphasis rabbit hole.

The official in the video, showing great hustle, jammed up against the coach, straight-lined on the ball, did the best she could. She missed the travel, but in my opinion, got the foul calls, and no calls, correct.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Apr 23, 2021 at 03:09pm.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 23, 2021, 03:00pm
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This angle I don't see anything the defender does illegal.

I can clearly see the offensive player's arm unnaturally in the defender's head and neck region with contact just before the official blows her whistle.

I'll trust her angle and judgment in regards to that call.

Very first lesson I ever learned in my very first basketball camp 19 years ago was to call fouls when there is contact to the head. It has always stuck with me. The person who ran that little local high school camp is now the supervisor for about 9 or 10 Men's D1 conferences and his philosophies kind of permeate in this region of the country down to the D3 level.
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Last edited by Raymond; Fri Apr 23, 2021 at 03:09pm.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 23, 2021, 03:06pm
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Good Judgment ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
This angle I don't see anything the defender does illegal. I can clearly see the offensive player's arm in the defenders head and neck region just before the official blows her whistle. I'll trust her angle and judgment in regards to that call.
Agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
The official in the video, showing great hustle, jammed up against the coach, straight-lined on the ball, did the best she could. She missed the travel, but in my opinion, got the foul calls, and no calls, correct.
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