Warning ???

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Thanks Raymond. Apparently (based on quiz answers) IAABO wants us to "issue" a behavior warning after a bench technical foul with no previous warning to stress that a bench technical foul without a previous warning means that the bench has lost the privilege of getting a warning later in that game. I was wondering about NFHS rules and interpretations regarding the same. Does "issue a warning" really mean that the official instructs the scorekeeper to write a behavior warning, a warning that really wasn't given, down in the book?

Second situation was not an IAABO interpretation (it was my own curious question) but basically the same thing regarding and a plane boundary delay "warning" after the inbound play where the defender crosses the plane and slaps the ball (technical foul), or the inbounder (intentional foul), with no previous delay warning (of any type) such that the next delay (of any type) is a technical foul. Does an official really instruct the scorekeeper write a delay warning, a warning that really wasn't given, down in the book?

Are either, or both, of these warnings actually "issued", or are they just understood to exist?

The second situation has been in the book for years and discussed quite often in the forums.

Again, for the first situation, what does the rule book say?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

... for the first situation, what does the rule book say?

Rule 4 - Section 48 Warning For Coach/Team Conduct
A warning to a head coach/bench personnel for misconduct is an administrative procedure by an official, which is recorded in the scorebook by the scorer and reported to the head coach.
Art. 1 For conduct, such as that described in Rule 10-5, Articles 1 (a, b d, e, f), 2 and 4, the official must warn the head coach unless the offense is judged to be major, in which case a technical foul must be assessed.
Note: A warning is not required prior to calling a technical foul.
Art. 2 For the first violation of Rule 10-6-1, the official must warn the head coach unless the offense is judged to be major, in which case a technical foul must be assessed.
Note: A warning is not required prior to calling a technical foul.

2017-18 NFHS Basketball Rules Changes
4-48 New: Warning for Coach/Team Conduct
A warning to a coach/team for misconduct is an administrative procedure by an official, which is recorded in the scorebook by the scorer and reported to the Head Coach:
Art. 1 For conduct, such as that described in rule 10-5-1a,b,d,e,f; 10-5-2; 10-5-4 the official shall warn the head coach unless the offense is judged to be major, in which case a technical foul shall be assessed. Note: A warning is not required prior to calling a technical foul.
Art. 2 For the first violation of rule 10-6-1, the official shall warn the head coach unless the offense is judged to be major, in which case a technical foul shall be assessed. Note: A warning is not required prior to calling a technical foul.

2017-18 Basketball Comments on the Rules
New rule for officials to issue a warning (4-48-1 and 2): Officials may now issue a warning to the coach or the team bench. These warnings can be for conduct that is described in 10-5 or 10-6. If the offense is deemed to be major, the official may assess a technical foul in either situation. A warning is not required prior to assessing a technical foul. These warnings will be recorded in the scorebook by the scorer and reported to the head coach.

2017-18 Basketball Rules Interpretations
Situation 13: The head coach of Team A is upset that the foul count against his team is 7 to 2. He voices his opinion in an unsporting manner to the contest official. Ruling: The official should stop play if it is not a break situation with a potential scoring opportunity and give the coach an official warning by notifying the scorekeeper and then letting the coach know that he has been warned. The scorekeeper should make note of the warning in the scorebook. This situation does not have to be given a warning; the coach could be issued a technical immediately. (4-48)

Situation 14: During a live ball, the assistant coach is off the bench and out of the coaching box giving instructions to a player on the court. Ruling: The official should rule a technical on the assistant coach for being off the bench and out of the coaching box. (4-48)

Situation 15: During the second quarter, the head coach is off the bench expressing his disapproval of several calls made. As the team brings the ball down the floor into the frontcourt, the trail official stops play to issue a warning. Ruling: The official is correct in issuing a warning to the coach for the complaints. The scorekeeper is notified, as well as the coach, of the warning. Another warning cannot be given. (4-48)

Unless I'm missing something, no where does the NFHS state that a bench technical foul without a previous warning means that the bench has lost the privilege of getting a warning later in that game.

Is it because of this: For the first violation of Rule 10-6-1, the official must warn the head coach unless the offense is judged to be major, in which case a technical foul must be assessed, and in my situation it would be a second violation?

But again, is there a need for the official to instruct the scorekeeper write a behavior warning, a warning that really wasn't given, down in the book, as stated on the IAABO quiz (to charge both a technical foul and to issue a behavior warning)?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Is it because of this: For the first violation of Rule 10-6-1, the official must warn the head coach unless the offense is judged to be major, in which case a technical foul must be assessed, and in my situation it would be a second violation?

Yes.

No idea on the specific IAABO requirement to write it down. Personally, if an official can't remember the coach has been Td, that's on the official. And, if the coach want to raise some stink about it not being written, it won't go very far. (Heck, I think there's some case where some delay warning isn't written, but it's still proper to T.O

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

No idea on the specific IAABO requirement to write it down. Personally, if an official can't remember the coach has been Td, that's on the official.

Agree. I thought that the IAABO quiz answer was kind of odd, which is why I presented it to the Forum.

IAABO is a great training organization, and I'm proud to be a forty year member, but they should stay in their educational lane and leave rule interpretations up to the NFHS, as James Naismith, and God, intended.

Note: Remember the lane rebounder crosses the free throw line before the ball hits fiasco when the NFHS changed hit to release a few years ago and IAABO jumped the gun by a full year with their own interpretation.

[Mike Goodwin]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

[I]Rule 4 - Section 48 Warning For Coach/Team Conduct
A warning to a head coach/bench personnel for misconduct is an administrative procedure by an official, which is recorded in the scorebook by the scorer and reported to the head coach.
Art. 1 For conduct, such as that described in Rule 10-5, Articles 1 (a, b d, e, f), 2 and 4, the official must warn the head coach unless the offense is judged to be major, in which case a technical foul must be assessed.
Note: A warning is not required prior to calling a technical foul.
Art. 2 For the first violation of Rule 10-6-1, the official must warn the head coach unless the offense is judged to be major, in which case a technical foul must be assessed.
Note: A warning is not required prior to calling a technical foul.

I can't find anywhere where the book explicitly states anything like, "a technical foul assessed to a team under 10-5 before a warning is issued under 4-48, also counts as that team's warning."

However, I can draw that conclusion from the wording in the ruling from Case Book 10.5.1 Situation A (page 84).


Play: At halftime, as the teams, coaches and officials are making their way through a hallway to the dressing room, a Team A member inappropriately addresses one of the officials.

Ruling: The official must decide if the offense is major. Under 4-48, if not deemed to be major and neither a warning nor technical has been charged (direct or indirect) to the head coach, the bench personnel could be issued a warning. If a warning is issued, this would be reported to both teams, recorded in the scorebook, and the head coach would not lose coaching-box privileges. If the offense was judged to be major or a warning or technical has already been issued to the head coach, a technical foul is charged to the team member and is also charged indirectly to the head coach resulting in the loss of coaching-box privileges.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mike Goodwin

I can't find anywhere where the book explicitly states anything like, "a technical foul assessed to a team under 10-5 before a warning is issued under 4-48, also counts as that team's warning."

Agree, and I've spent all day looking.

This takes care of part of the issue (no behavior warning after first behavior violation (warning or technical foul)): For the first violation of Rule 10-6-1, the official must warn the head coach unless the offense is judged to be major, in which case a technical foul must be assessed. It only states "first violation", not second violation.

IAABO quiz states to also "issue the warning" after a technical foul for the first behavior "violation". Would like to understand the basis for their ruling, if there is one, or maybe they're wrong.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Agree, and I've spent all day looking.



Close, but no cigar.

Change "major" to "minor" and then we're cooking with gas.

If it was major OR a T or warning was previously issued...

So, if a T was previously issued, there's no need for a warning. So, the first T serves as a warning.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

So, if a T was previously issued, there's no need for a warning. So, the first T serves as a warning.

Thanks for your time, effort, and input.

IAABO quiz states to do both for one event, the technical foul and a warning.

Would like to understand the basis for their ruling, if there is one, or maybe they're wrong.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

If it was major OR a T or warning was previously issued... So, if a T was previously issued, there's no need for a warning. So, the first T serves as a warning.

Deleted "major' comet after you spotted it. My post didn't make sense to me (neither did Mike Goodwin's try at a helpful interpretation). Sorry.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Mike Goodwin

I can't find anywhere where the book explicitly states anything like, "a technical foul assessed to a team under 10-5 before a warning is issued under 4-48, also counts as that team's warning."

However, I can draw that conclusion from the wording in the ruling from Case Book 10.5.1 Situation A (page 84).


Play: At halftime, as the teams, coaches and officials are making their way through a hallway to the dressing room, a Team A member inappropriately addresses one of the officials.

Ruling: The official must decide if the offense is major. Under 4-48, if not deemed to be major and neither a warning nor technical has been charged (direct or indirect) to the head coach, the bench personnel could be issued a warning. If a warning is issued, this would be reported to both teams, recorded in the scorebook, and the head coach would not lose coaching-box privileges. If the offense was judged to be major or a warning or technical has already been issued to the head coach, a technical foul is charged to the team member and is also charged indirectly to the head coach resulting in the loss of coaching-box privileges.

This play ruling from the case book clarifies that once a technical foul has been issued to bench personnel no warning may thereafter be issued. The subsequent poor behavior is simply a technical foul. So to answer BillyMac’s question, yes, a team does lose the privilege of a behavior warning to bench personnel once a technical foul has been issued.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mike Goodwin

Case Book 10.5.1 Situation A. Play: At halftime, as the teams, coaches and officials are making their way through a hallway to the dressing room, a Team A member inappropriately addresses one of the officials. Ruling: The official must decide if the offense is major. Under 4-48, if not deemed to be major and neither a warning nor technical has been charged (direct or indirect) to the head coach, the bench personnel could be issued a warning. If a warning is issued, this would be reported to both teams, recorded in the scorebook, and the head coach would not lose coaching-box privileges. If the offense was judged to be major or a warning or technical has already been issued to the head coach, a technical foul is charged to the team member and is also charged indirectly to the head coach resulting in the loss of coaching-box privileges.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

... didn't make sense to me (neither did Mike Goodwin's try at a helpful interpretation).

Originally Posted by Raymond

Mike did an excellent job of finding an applicable case play from which to draw our conclusion that the technical serves as a warning.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

This play ruling from the case book clarifies that once a technical foul has been issued to bench personnel no warning may thereafter be issued. The subsequent poor behavior is simply a technical foul ... a team does lose the privilege of a behavior warning to bench personnel once a technical foul has been issued.

I never meant to imply that Mike Goodwin's casebook play was not helpful in confirming a rule citation (4-48-2 "first violation") that I had already posted earlier (Post #9), but that it wasn't helpful in dealing with the probable mistake of IAABO wanting an additional "issued warning".

Sorry Mike Goodwin. Thanks.