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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 07, 2021, 06:28pm
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Late Delete ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
If it was major OR a T or warning was previously issued... So, if a T was previously issued, there's no need for a warning. So, the first T serves as a warning.
Deleted "major' comet after you spotted it. My post didn't make sense to me (neither did Mike Goodwin's try at a helpful interpretation). Sorry.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 07, 2021, 08:33pm
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Mike did an excellent job of finding an applicable case play from which to draw our conclusion that the technical serves as a warning.

Nowhere does it mention formally writing something in the book for a warning if a technical has already been issued. So now it's time to turn your attention to the IAABO folks to explain their answer.

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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 07, 2021, 10:28pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Disclaimer: For IAABO eyes only. Below is not a NFHS interpretation, it's only an IAABO International interpretation which obviously doesn't mean a hill of beans to most members of this Forum.

Got an IAABO Inside the Lines bulletin this morning with two quiz questions with some oddly worded answers.

No need to discuss whether, or not, the technical fouls were deserved, I'd like to concentrate on the "tacked on" warning.

1. B1 places both hands on Dribbler A1 and is charged with a hand checking foul. As the official is reporting the foul, the Team B head coach asks, “What did the B1 do?” The official replies, that B1 had two hands on A1. The head coach of Team B screams “That’s a terrible call!” The official should:
A. Call an unsporting technical foul on the head coach.
B. Ignore the Situation.
C. Issue a behavior warning on the head coach.
D. A & C.

Answer: 1. D-10-6-Penalty.

2. As A1 is cutting through the lane and yells “get your hands off of me!” Moments later, the assistant coach yells “Get their (expletive) hands off us!”
The official should:
A. Ignore the Assistant Coach.
B. Call a technical foul on the Assistant Coach.
C. Issue a behavior warning on the Assistant Coach.
D. B & C.

Answer: 2. D-10-6-Penalty


Did IAABO add "Issue a behavior warning" to the technical foul answer to stress that a technical foul without a previous warning means that the coach has lost the privilege of getting a warning later in that game?

Should the behavior warning be actually "issued" (in the scorebook)?

No, the greater penalty (technical foul) has already been issued. This is the same as the indirect technical foul assessed to a head coach for a team member's infraction (Class B under NCAAM rules) not carrying its own penalty because the penalty for the team member's technical foul is already being enforced. Does the head coach have to sit, in NFHS rules? Yes. Do we record the loss of coaching box, and tell the coach that he has been charged with an indirect technical foul? No. The non-calling official on the tableside will remind the head coach that he has lost the coaching box, but nothing else will be enforced against the head coach. Usually, in NCAAM rules, a Class B technical foul carries a one-shot penalty, but because free throws are already being assessed for the team member's Class B (or A) technical foul, the offending team is not put into double jeopardy. For the same reason, even though we know that the offending team is no longer entitled to a warning after a technical foul has been issued to someone on the bench, we do not formally record that, because reporting both the warning and the technical foul would be putting the head coach into double jeopardy by punishing him twice for the same action. AFAIK, this is not allowed.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 07, 2021, 11:38pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Goodwin View Post
I can't find anywhere where the book explicitly states anything like, "a technical foul assessed to a team under 10-5 before a warning is issued under 4-48, also counts as that team's warning."

However, I can draw that conclusion from the wording in the ruling from Case Book 10.5.1 Situation A (page 84).


Play: At halftime, as the teams, coaches and officials are making their way through a hallway to the dressing room, a Team A member inappropriately addresses one of the officials.

Ruling: The official must decide if the offense is major. Under 4-48, if not deemed to be major and neither a warning nor technical has been charged (direct or indirect) to the head coach, the bench personnel could be issued a warning. If a warning is issued, this would be reported to both teams, recorded in the scorebook, and the head coach would not lose coaching-box privileges. If the offense was judged to be major or a warning or technical has already been issued to the head coach, a technical foul is charged to the team member and is also charged indirectly to the head coach resulting in the loss of coaching-box privileges.
This play ruling from the case book clarifies that once a technical foul has been issued to bench personnel no warning may thereafter be issued. The subsequent poor behavior is simply a technical foul. So to answer BillyMac’s question, yes, a team does lose the privilege of a behavior warning to bench personnel once a technical foul has been issued.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 08, 2021, 10:06am
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Casebook Play Helpful To Confirm Earlier Rule Citation ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Goodwin View Post
Case Book 10.5.1 Situation A. Play: At halftime, as the teams, coaches and officials are making their way through a hallway to the dressing room, a Team A member inappropriately addresses one of the officials. Ruling: The official must decide if the offense is major. Under 4-48, if not deemed to be major and neither a warning nor technical has been charged (direct or indirect) to the head coach, the bench personnel could be issued a warning. If a warning is issued, this would be reported to both teams, recorded in the scorebook, and the head coach would not lose coaching-box privileges. If the offense was judged to be major or a warning or technical has already been issued to the head coach, a technical foul is charged to the team member and is also charged indirectly to the head coach resulting in the loss of coaching-box privileges.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
... didn't make sense to me (neither did Mike Goodwin's try at a helpful interpretation).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
Mike did an excellent job of finding an applicable case play from which to draw our conclusion that the technical serves as a warning.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
This play ruling from the case book clarifies that once a technical foul has been issued to bench personnel no warning may thereafter be issued. The subsequent poor behavior is simply a technical foul ... a team does lose the privilege of a behavior warning to bench personnel once a technical foul has been issued.
I never meant to imply that Mike Goodwin's casebook play was not helpful in confirming a rule citation (4-48-2 "first violation") that I had already posted earlier (Post #9), but that it wasn't helpful in dealing with the probable mistake of IAABO wanting an additional "issued warning".

Sorry Mike Goodwin. Thanks.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Apr 08, 2021 at 11:00am.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 08, 2021, 10:32am
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Intimidating ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
So now it's time to turn your attention to the IAABO folks to explain their answer.
I will consider it.

I find the IAABO "Gang of Four" to be intimidating. It's not them, it's me.

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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Apr 08, 2021 at 10:35am.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 08, 2021, 11:59am
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Talked Me Into It ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
So now it's time to turn your attention to the IAABO folks to explain their answer.
April 8, 2021

To IAABO Co-Coordinators of Interpreters

Regarding two NFHS quiz questions from the recent IAABO Inside the Lines bulletin:

1. B1 places both hands on Dribbler A1 and is charged with a hand checking foul. As the official is reporting the foul, the Team B head coach asks, “What did the B1 do?” The official replies, that B1 had two hands on A1. The head coach of Team B screams “That’s a terrible call!” The official should:
A. Call an unsporting technical foul on the head coach.
B. Ignore the Situation.
C. Issue a behavior warning on the head coach.
D. A & C.
Answer: 1. D-10-6-Penalty.

2. As A1 is cutting through the lane and yells “get your hands off of me!” Moments later, the assistant coach yells “Get their (expletive) hands off us!”
The official should:
A. Ignore the Assistant Coach.
B. Call a technical foul on the Assistant Coach.
C. Issue a behavior warning on the Assistant Coach.
D. B & C.
Answer: 2. D-10-6-Penalty

I fully understand and agree that once a bench technical foul has been issued to bench personnel that no warning may thereafter be issued and that any subsequent poor bench behavior is simply a bench technical foul, in other words, a team loses the privilege of a bench behavior warning to bench personnel once a bench technical foul has been issued.

Citations confirming this “lose the privilege of a behavior warning” ruling include:

4-48-2 Warning For Coach/Team Conduct
For the first violation of Rule 10-6-1, the official must warn the head coach unless the offense is judged to be major, in which case a technical foul must be assessed.

Case Book 10.5.1 Situation A. Play: At halftime, as the teams, coaches and officials are making their way through a hallway to the dressing room, a Team A member inappropriately addresses one of the officials. Ruling: The official must decide if the offense is major. Under 4-48, if not deemed to be major and neither a warning nor technical has been charged (direct or indirect) to the head coach, the bench personnel could be issued a warning. If a warning is issued, this would be reported to both teams, recorded in the scorebook, and the head coach would not lose coaching-box privileges. If the offense was judged to be major or a warning or technical has already been issued to the head coach, a technical foul is charged to the team member and is also charged indirectly to the head coach resulting in the loss of coaching-box privileges.

I have a problem with the quiz ruling to “issue a behavior warning” on the head coach/assistant coach (bench) in addition to the charged bench technical foul.

Does IAABO want us to "issue a behavior warning” after a bench technical foul with no previous bench behavior warning to stress that a bench technical foul without a previous bench behavior warning means that the team has lost the privilege of getting a bench behavior warning later in that game?

Does "issue a behavior warning" really mean that the official instructs the scorekeeper to write a bench behavior warning, a warning that really wasn't given, in the scorebook?

I would like to understand the basis for this "issue a behavior warning" in addition to the charged bench technical foul ruling.

Please cite any relevant NFHS rules, or interpretations, to help me understand this IAABO quiz ruling.

Thank you.

BillyMac
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“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 08, 2021, 12:13pm
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Ask, And It Shall Be Given You; Seek, And Ye Shall Find (Matthew 7:7) …

From IAABO Co-Coordinator of Interpreters:

Thanks for contacting us. We appreciate the time and effort you put into narrative below.

I edit those quizzes and meant to change those answers.

You are correct, Question #1 the answer should be A; In Question 2 the answer should be B

Officials do not need to issue an additional warning after assessing a technical foul.

I will get these answers corrected.

Thanks again for taking time to review the “Inside the Lines” and participating in the quizzes.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Apr 08, 2021 at 02:22pm.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 08, 2021, 02:08pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
From IAABO Co-Coordinators of Interpreters:

Thanks for contacting us. We appreciate the time and effort you put into narrative below.

I edit those quizzes and meant to change those answers.

You are correct, Question #1 the answer should be A; In Question 2 the answer should be B

Officials do not need to issue an additional warning after assessing a technical foul.

I will get these answers corrected.

Thanks again for taking time to review the “Inside the Lines” and participating in the quizzes.
Full marks for a good response time; slight deduction for not editing the answers before publication.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 08, 2021, 02:28pm
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Human Papillomavirus ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Goodwin View Post
Full marks for a good response time; slight deduction for not editing the answers before publication.
NFHS has warts. IAABO has warts. BillyMac has warts. Fact of life. Nobody's perfect.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Apr 08, 2021 at 02:40pm.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 08, 2021, 04:57pm
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CaCO3 ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Goodwin View Post
... slight deduction for not editing the answers before publication.
If one is going to publish something that will go out to 15,000 IAABO officials, one would think that one should be sure that the information was 100% correct, possibly asking others to edit and double check the information.

Back when I was teaching middle school science, I was meticulous about double and triple checking lesson plans, handouts, lab instructions, tests (questions and answers), and quizzes (questions and answers). Even spelling errors. Middle school kids just love catching teachers making mistakes.

"Hey Mr. BillyMac, CaCO2 isn't the formula for calcium carbonate."
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Apr 08, 2021 at 05:00pm.
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