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Old Mon Mar 29, 2021, 09:23am
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NCAA backcourt count

I didn't watch a whole ton of NCAA-M basketball this season, but have tried to watch as much as I can during tournament time. I have noticed a very obvious lack of visible backcourt counting...at least during the games I have seen.

Does anyone know the mandate on when/how officials decide to show a visible backcourt count? There have been more than a few times when I choose not to visibly count, then next thing I know there's a sudden trap, or a ball bounces away, or maybe a pass gets fumbled... I have tried to condition myself to count 100% of the time, regardless of time or score.

Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it, I suppose?
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Old Mon Mar 29, 2021, 09:36am
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There is no 10 sec count in the back court unless the shot clock is off. If the ball is put in play in the backcourt with less than 30 seconds to play in the half, a
count is neccessary.
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Old Mon Mar 29, 2021, 09:36am
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They have a shotclock counting for them. When the clock gets to 20 and ball still has back court possession then there is a violation.

There are a few circumstances when they have to count like when the shot clock is turned off.
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Old Mon Mar 29, 2021, 10:04am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danvrapp View Post
I didn't watch a whole ton of NCAA-M basketball this season,
It's been this way for several seasons (at least in NCAAW, and I assume, in NCAAM)
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Old Mon Mar 29, 2021, 10:19am
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Hybrid Rules ...

Slightly off topic, but I believe that there is a difference between NFHS and NCAA rules regarding when the ten second rule begins, possession for NFHS, touch for NCAA.

I became aware of this a few years ago in a varsity prep school game, where, here in Connecticut, we use an odd motley assortment of poorly organized hybrid NFHS/NCAA rules, including a shot clock, with many unintended consequences.

After using visible ten second counts in these games for many years, we decided to go the the NCAA mechanic of using the shot clock instead of a visible count.

I noticed that the shot clock was starting early on a few occasions, and eventually figured out why, it was an unintended consequence of odd motley assortment of poorly organized hybrid NFHS/NCAA rules.

Here's another unintended hybrid consequence: When you hear hoofbeats look for horses not zonkeys.

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Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Mar 29, 2021 at 02:49pm.
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Old Mon Mar 29, 2021, 12:04pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
... an unintended consequence of odd motley assortment of poorly organized hybrid NFHS/NCAA rules.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Mar 29, 2021 at 12:28pm.
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Old Mon Mar 29, 2021, 02:46pm
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Oh Shit, I Need A Count ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danvrapp View Post
There have been more than a few times when I choose not to visibly count, then next thing I know there's a sudden trap, or a ball bounces away, or maybe a pass gets fumbled ... I have tried to condition myself to count 100% of the time, regardless of time or score.
Been there. Done that in a few of my high school games. Keep trying to never do it again.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Mar 30, 2021 at 10:28am.
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Old Mon Mar 29, 2021, 02:50pm
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Do the math. Glance at game clock (and shot clock, if applicable), perform a mental count while scanning the court. If your mental count and game clock show more than 10 seconds from the initial game time, it is a violation. I do that whether I have to perform a visible count or not, if only to ensure that my visible count is accurate. If coach asks me, I can say that "possession started at 1:21, it's 1:10 now" if I have to explain why I called a violation.
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Old Mon Mar 29, 2021, 02:55pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
Do the math....If coach asks me, I can...explain why I called a violation.
I was given that advice in camp many years ago, and have used that very statement with coaches on a few occasions. Helps with credibility when you have definite knowledge of the clock and s/he's accusing you of a fast/slow count!
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Old Mon Mar 29, 2021, 03:17pm
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Lost The Count ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danvrapp View Post
There have been more than a few times when I choose not to visibly count, then next thing I know there's a sudden trap, or a ball bounces away, or maybe a pass gets fumbled ... I have tried to condition myself to count 100% of the time, regardless of time or score.
In case we do screw up:

5.10.1 SITUATION B: Team A leads by one point when they inbound the ball in their backcourt with 12 seconds remaining in the fourth quarter. A1's throw-in pass is to A2 who dribbles in the backcourt until the horn sounds. The trail official does not make a 10-second ruling because he/she "lost the count." RULING: The game is over. The clock may not be reset as there are no rule provisions to do this. If the count was not accurate or was not made, it cannot be corrected. There is no provision for the correction of an error made in the official's accuracy in counting seconds.
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Old Mon Mar 29, 2021, 03:27pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
It's been this way for several seasons (at least in NCAAW, and I assume, in NCAAM)
Not only has it been like that for a few years, but any official on the floor in NCAA Men's basketball can also rule a violation took place if they notice it. The primary is of course the trail, but it is not only the trail that can make this call.

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Old Mon Mar 29, 2021, 03:37pm
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Lesson Learned ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
Do the math.
About forty years ago, as a young inexperienced official, during a junior varsity game, after a successful final free throw, as the new Trail, I carelessly and unknowingly kept visibly counting, with no break, from the throwin count to the ten second count.

Ball at disposal, one, two, three, four, throwin pass, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, ball still in backcourt, violation.

Coach complained so much, "Only six seconds ticked down", as he pointed to the scoreboard, standing (full game seat belt rule back then) and yelling, I charged him with a technical foul.

On the way home in the car, I discussed it my partner (math doesn't lie) and we figured out my mistake.

Next time I saw the coach I offered him my apology, which was accepted.

That's why the mechanics manual has us switch arms when one count changes to another (throwin to ten seconds, closely guarded holding to closely guarded dribbling, vice versa).

I always do that, and may have done it that night, but I still didn't start my ten second count from one.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Mar 30, 2021 at 10:30am.
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Old Mon Mar 29, 2021, 06:05pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
Do the math. Glance at game clock (and shot clock, if applicable), perform a mental count while scanning the court. If your mental count and game clock show more than 10 seconds from the initial game time, it is a violation. I do that whether I have to perform a visible count or not, if only to ensure that my visible count is accurate. If coach asks me, I can say that "possession started at 1:21, it's 1:10 now" if I have to explain why I called a violation.
Using the game clock is not allowed (by rule) in NCAAW.
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Old Mon Mar 29, 2021, 06:33pm
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This is more for advice in levels that don't have the shot clock, or for levels using NBA rules. Otherwise, a visible count is used when the shot clock is off.
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