10 Sec Backcourt Count

[The_Rookie]

A1 dribbling in his BC and right before the division line B1 knocks the ball away OOB. 7 seconds on the 10 second count has elapsed.


Question: How Much time does A have to get the ball into FC?

NFHS? NCAA? If different ruling, why treated differently?

Thanks!

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by The_Rookie

A1 dribbling in his BC and right before the division line B1 knocks the ball away OOB. 7 seconds on the 10 second count has elapsed.


Question: How Much time does A have to get the ball into FC?

NFHS? NCAA? If different ruling, why treated differently?

Thanks!

NFHS: A new ten-second count starts if and when Team A establishes Player Control in Team A's Backcourt.

NCAA: Three seconds left on the ten-second count.

MTD, Sr.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by The_Rookie

NFHS? NCAA? If different ruling, why treated differently?

Simply put, because each individual rule-making body can make whatever rules it wants.

NCAA decided this year that they don't want to penalize the defense for making a play like the one you described. And one thing that makes this kind of rule more objectively sound in the NCAA is the fact that the shot clock (except when it's off) is the basis for the 10-second count; no one can argue what portion of the 10-second count has elapsed.

In NFHS, on the other hand, where there is no shot clock, every official's counting speed is a little different. So a rule like the NCAA rule would lead to a bunch of coaches challenging officials' counts, which is not desirable. So until there is a universal shot clock with well-trained operators nationwide, I don't see this rule trickling down to the HS level.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

Simply put, because each individual rule-making body can make whatever rules it wants.

NCAA decided this year that they don't want to penalize the defense for making a play like the one you described. And one thing that makes this kind of rule more objectively sound in the NCAA is the fact that the shot clock (except when it's off) is the basis for the 10-second count; no one can argue what portion of the 10-second count has elapsed.

In NFHS, on the other hand, where there is no shot clock, every official's counting speed is a little different. So a rule like the NCAA rule would lead to a bunch of coaches challenging officials' counts, which is not desirable. So until there is a universal shot clock with well-trained operators nationwide, I don't see this rule trickling down to the HS level.

If you ever worked a lower level NCAA game or a NAIA game, you would know that often, the ability of the person responsible for starting/stopping the shot clock in those games, leaves much to be desired. There are some schools I have gone to where the shot clock is wrong on every possession. They either start it too soon (while the person throwing the ball in still has the ball out of bounds), or they start it too late (the offensive team has already taken 5 dribbles up the court and it still hasn't started). One learns very quickly that it would be a complete waste of time to stop the game and fix the situation at some of those schools because you would be doing this on almost every possession.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by johnny d

If you ever worked a lower level NCAA game or a NAIA game, you would know that often, the ability of the person responsible for starting/stopping the shot clock in those games, leaves much to be desired. There are some schools I have gone to where the shot clock is wrong on every possession. They either start it too soon (while the person throwing the ball in still has the ball out of bounds), or they start it too late (the offensive team has already taken 5 dribbles up the court and it still hasn't started). One learns very quickly that it would be a complete waste of time to stop the game and fix the situation at some of those schools because you would be doing this on almost every possession.

Johnny:

I don't know how much experience at the college level you have but I officiated women's college (every thing from jr. college to Div. I, including 40 post-season games) from 1974 to 2008 and men's jr. college from 1993 to 2008, and I have cannot ever remember having trouble with shot clock timers and/or game clock timers.

MTD, Sr.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by The_Rookie

A1 dribbling in his BC and right before the division line B1 knocks the ball away OOB. 7 seconds on the 10 second count has elapsed.


Question: How Much time does A have to get the ball into FC?

NFHS? NCAA? If different ruling, why treated differently?

Thanks!

You don't know the NFHS ruling for this play?

Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by johnny d

If you ever worked a lower level NCAA game or a NAIA game, you would know that often, the ability of the person responsible for starting/stopping the shot clock in those games, leaves much to be desired. There are some schools I have gone to where the shot clock is wrong on every possession. They either start it too soon (while the person throwing the ball in still has the ball out of bounds), or they start it too late (the offensive team has already taken 5 dribbles up the court and it still hasn't started). One learns very quickly that it would be a complete waste of time to stop the game and fix the situation at some of those schools because you would be doing this on almost every possession.

I work D2, D3 and Juco. I also have a shot-clock in my NYC GV games. Yes, there can be problems. However, if things are that bad, you find someone else to do it - even if it's the AD or one of the home team's assistants. The school's administration will get the idea when its home games last 2½ hours because of all the delays.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

I work D2, D3 and Juco. I also have a shot-clock in my NYC GV games. Yes, there can be problems. However, if things are that bad, you find someone else to do it - even if it's the AD or one of the home team's assistants. The school's administration will get the idea when its home games last 2½ hours because of all the delays.

And, include it in your game report (and include it when they do a good job, too).

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Johnny:

I don't know how much experience at the college level you have but I officiated women's college (every thing from jr. college to Div. I, including 40 post-season games) from 1974 to 2008 and men's jr. college from 1993 to 2008, and I have cannot ever remember having trouble with shot clock timers and/or game clock timers.

MTD, Sr.

I do about 60 college games a year. There is at least one school in each lower level conference that I work that is notoriously bad with their shot clock operators. Since it is the same schools every year, it is pretty obvious they do not care about finding a qualified person to do the job.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by johnny d

I do about 60 college games a year. There is at least one school in each lower level conference that I work that is notoriously bad with their shot clock operators. Since it is the same schools every year, it is pretty obvious they do not care about finding a qualified person to do the job.

Great. I just can't wait until the shot clock makes its way down to the high school game.

Note: Am I supposed to have this in a blue font to indicate sarcasm?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by johnny d

I do about 60 college games a year. There is at least one school in each lower level conference that I work that is notoriously bad with their shot clock operators. Since it is the same schools every year, it is pretty obvious they do not care about finding a qualified person to do the job.

Johnny:

I don't know what to say. Even at the men's jr. college and jr. varsity level I cannot remember having incompetent table personnel. Maybe you should talk to Rut. Because I am having trouble figuring out why you are having trouble with so many tables.

MTD, Sr.

[David M]

It is my understanding that the shot clock starts on touch and the 10 second counts starts on control so using the shot clock for a 10 second violation would not always be accurate. Is this correct?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by David M

It is my understanding that the shot clock starts on touch and the 10 second counts starts on control so using the shot clock for a 10 second violation would not always be accurate. Is this correct?

in NCAA, that is NOT correct. Both start on the touch when play starts with a throw-in. Both start with "control" when A gets the ball on a turn-over or rebound.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Johnny:

I don't know what to say. Even at the men's jr. college and jr. varsity level I cannot remember having incompetent table personnel. Maybe you should talk to Rut. Because I am having trouble figuring out why you are having trouble with so many tables.

MTD, Sr.

Maybe Johnny and Rut work in different areas / conferences. But, I, too, and curious as to which are so bad (I do know that some are better than others).