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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 20, 2021, 06:22pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post

To agree with your earlier point, that's where using our experience, game management skills, judgement, local "culture", common sense, and looking at each situation case by case allows us to react to the situation, maybe ignoring and letting the clock run out, or maybe "bumping up" the situation as a question to be answered by a higher authority. I don't believe that a technical foul in that game based on a single official's belief that it's illegal or unsporting is the way to go here. But I don't question his wanting some outside input into a situation that he believes is questionable in terms of the "standing" rule as written, or as an unsporting act. If the situation keeps bothering him over many years, his best bet is to discuss it with his assigner, an assigner who can then bump it upstairs if he wishes, or if not, tell the official to take a hike.
We have all in our career been told the ways of the road. Or the ins and outs of this business. His asking is not an issue at all. The issue is if he goes out on his own doing something and has no support for that action or no one other than him bringing it to his attention to do something. It can bother him just like things bothered us coming up, but the last thing I want him or any official to do is to penalize something that no one is going to support him on because he read a line in the rulebook. Those lines mean something and have precedent and calling a T, near the end of the game might not be a good career move. It is perfectly fine to ask, but understand why we are saying what we are saying about why that might not work out that well if you pull that trigger. It is up to anyone after that to realize what is the best thing to do.

Peace
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 20, 2021, 06:37pm
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The Mark Padgett Memorial Croquet Tournament ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Those lines mean something and have precedent and calling a T, near the end of the game might not be a good career move ... why that might not work out that well if you pull that trigger.
By written rule to back him up, even without playing the "unsporting card", he would be "theoretically" correct to charge a technical foul: wasn't spontaneous, doesn't appear to be a reaction to a single outstanding play by a teammate, and bench personnel did not immediately sit back down.

Three strikes. You're out. Technical foul. "Theoretically".

But we don't officiate "theoretical" basketball games.

In a real game, if he unilaterally pulls the trigger in a ten point game, it would, as JRutledge stated, not be a good career move, even with written rule backing.

Even worse, if he unilaterally pulls the trigger in a two point game, he may never officiate basketball again and could end up officiating The Mark Padgett Memorial Croquet Tournament (game fees plus all the cucumber sandwiches and watercress sandwiches one can eat).
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“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Mar 21, 2021 at 03:45pm.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 20, 2021, 06:46pm
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Written Warning ...

Problem solved. Written warning.

May generate a few derogatory remarks by coaches and officiating colleagues, but it won't have a major impact on the long term future of one's basketball officiating career.

On the other hand, it may still be overkill. Never mind.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Sat Mar 20, 2021 at 06:48pm.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Sun Mar 21, 2021, 02:25pm
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I Miss Mark Padgett ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Even worse, if he unilaterally pulls the trigger in a two point game, he may never officiate basketball again and could end up officiating The Mark Padgett Memorial Croquet Tournament (game fees plus all the cucumber sandwiches and watercress sandwiches one can eat).
Plus one gets to meet many hot single Grandmas.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Mar 21, 2021 at 03:58pm.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 25, 2021, 01:44am
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Small Sample, especially for BillyMac

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Problem solved. Written warning.

May generate a few derogatory remarks by coaches and officiating colleagues, but it won't have a major impact on the long term future of one's basketball officiating career.

On the other hand, it may still be overkill. Never mind.
So here's an example of what this looks like:

Reminder: I haven't acted on this yet and have no plans on doing so independently.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=2h47...ature=youtu.be (video elapsed time: 2h, 47m, 15s)

Questions/concerns/advice from previous posts:

1) count down from 10 and hit the locker room. That's what I have done and currently do;
2) get branded “high maintenance” and “overly officious." Since I haven't acted on this to date, it'd have to be for other reason(s) that I might get branded this way;
3) are coaches from other teams complaining? I do not know; I've never asked them. They see this team anywhere from maybe 1-4 times or so each year; I see them at least 6, so it's a cumulative exposure over years for me seeing this;
4) call this in a two-point game? Nah, they only do this when their win is assured (lead at least >10 pts.);
5) local "culture"? No other local teams do this. And we aren't generally known for being innovators unless it's arctic-weather related; certainly not anything basketball-related. I'm surprised this end-of-game behavior doesn't occur elsewhere in the Lower 48 (if it does look familiar, kindly let me know). If they did this one when they were about to lose, I'd be able to drop it without hesitation straightaway;
6) I'm in the twilight of my career (too old for college ball), so moving up isn't going to happen and I also have a good relationship with my assignor, so neither is a concern of mine.

Two analogies that might be useful: this might have the look and feel of getting a speeding ticket for 36-in-a-35mph zone (and no, I have never given or received one of those). So, yes, overkill is a good word to describe it (thanks, BillyMac).

The other analogy is something akin to passengers unbuckling and standing up on an airplane while the aircraft is still moving along the taxiway and nowhere close to the gate. It does no good for the captain to stop the aircraft to address the standees, but it doesn't mean it isn't behavior that might need to be addressed *somehow*.

Since all y'all are unaffiliated with basketball where my board operates, this is a pretty good place to ask. For various reasons, I won't get the same nuggets of wisdom, anecdotes, and other stories if I only ask my local peers about this.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 25, 2021, 06:49am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Goodwin View Post
I won't get the same nuggets of wisdom, anecdotes, and other stories if I only ask my local peers about this.
You will, however, get all the information that matters to you in this case.

And, the video is nothing.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 25, 2021, 07:42am
Do not give a damn!!
 
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If that is a technical foul, I am going to have one every single game when the game is decided. Players and benches tend to celebrate near the end. And they do not often golf clap, they make noise and let it be known they got this game. I would not even have noticed this if you did not mention this.

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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 25, 2021, 10:03am
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Rules Intelligently Applied ...

First of all, the clapping by bench personnel is perfectly legal. Bench personnel can legally clap from the jump ball until the final buzzer as long as it's not taunting (and if it doesn't distract free throw shooters, a controversial topic here on the Forum).

Regarding bench personnel standing. Technically it is illegal by the written rule because it wasn't spontaneous and doesn't appear to be a reaction to an outstanding play by a teammate (bench personnel not immediately sitting down doesn't apply since the game ended).

But we don't just officiate by the written rule. We have to know the intent and purpose of a rule so that it may be intelligently applied, in this case to create an atmosphere of sporting behavior.

Being around basketball for over fifty years as a player, coach, and official, I know unsporting behavior when I see it and this isn't unsporting behavior.

It doesn't appear to be taunting. With seven seconds left in the game, it doesn't even deserve a written warning, or a warning of any type.



That being said, I do appreciate Mike Goodwin being a true guardian of the game, as all good officials should be. This behavior got his antennae tingling, and he decided to give it some careful thought.

Maybe things are different in the "Land of the Midnight Sun", but here in the "Land of Steady Habits" this wouldn't even register a blip on our radar screens.

Here in Connecticut we use radar to land airplanes and to follow storms, not as Alaskans do to warn us about incoming Russian bombers and missiles.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Mar 25, 2021 at 12:37pm.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 25, 2021, 10:49am
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Oh how I miss the days when Red would light up a stogie to signify that a Celtics' win was in the bag!

MTD, Sr.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 25, 2021, 10:59am
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Tobacco Road ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
Oh how I miss the days when Red would light up a stogie to signify that a Celtics' win was in the bag!


10-5-3: Bench personnel, including the head coach, must not: Use alcohol, or any form of tobacco product (e-cigarette or similar items) beginning with arrival at the competition site until departure following the completion of the contest.

Young'uns can check out Red Auerbach on the Google.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Mar 25, 2021 at 12:26pm.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 25, 2021, 11:12am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post


10-5-3: Bench personnel, including the head coach, must not: Use alcohol, or any form of tobacco product (e-cigarette or similar items) beginning with arrival at the competition site until departure following the completion of the contest.

Thanks Billy. I am showing my age, LOL!

MTD, Sr.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 27, 2021, 08:11pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
...he may never officiate basketball again and could end up officiating The Mark Padgett Memorial Croquet Tournament (game fees plus all the cucumber sandwiches and watercress sandwiches one can eat).
This appears to be a Trumpet of the Swan reference.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Sun Mar 28, 2021, 11:12am
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The First Rule Of Officiating ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Padgett View Post
The first rule of officiating: "Tuck your whistle in your jersey BEFORE you take a leak."
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
... he may never officiate basketball again and could end up officiating The Mark Padgett Memorial Croquet Tournament (game fees plus all the cucumber sandwiches and watercress sandwiches one can eat).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt View Post
This appears to be a Trumpet of the Swan reference.
I'm not familiar with that reference (I even checked it out on the Google and still didn't understand the reference).

One of my favorite Forum posters was Mark Padgett. The reference to officiating croquet came from him joking that after serious cardiac surgery he was forced to live in an assisted living facility and he turned in his basketball whistle and began to officiate croquet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
I would often try to convince Mark Padgett to switch his jokes from "Hot Mom" to "Hot single Mom", not wanting to encourage officials to become home wreckers. I miss Mark Padgett. Not only because of his great sense of humor, his childhood South Side of Chicago mobster stories, his pride in his Jewish faith, and his pride in the recreation leagues that he organized (offering "scholarships" to underprivileged youth) in his new home in the Pacific Northwest, but also because of his insight into officiating recreation level basketball. Sometimes some us forget that there's a whole world of basketball officiating under the professional, international, intercollegiate, and interscholastic level, and that the kids that play at these recreation levels deserve to have some minimum level of competent officiating to fully enjoy their childhood basketball experiences. For some, perhaps many, this will be their last experience playing organized basketball, and Mark Padgett was the guy to insure that their recreation experience was going to be a great one.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Mar 28, 2021 at 01:42pm.
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