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-   -   Illegal Dribble Scenarios (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/105008-illegal-dribble-scenarios.html)

WI_Ref Thu Mar 05, 2020 03:16pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1038044)
4-15-5: . An interrupted dribble occurs when the ball is loose after -
deflecting off the dribbler or after it momentarily gets away from the
dribbler. There is no player control during an interrupted dribble.


So you decided that the dribble was not interrupted, even in a generic sense (which may have included a momentarily loss of player control), by the opponent's deflection.

So no loss of "control", even in a generic sense.

9-5: A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has
ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
ART. 1 A try for field goal.
ART. 2 A touch by an opponent.
ART. 3 A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by,
another player.


You were there, I wasn't, I could certainly live with your interpretation, but I might have ruled a legal play.

But hey, you probably get paid bigger bucks than me, I've been working middle school games (chronic injury) for the past two seasons.

Who am I to judge (apologies to Pope Francis).



Sleep well my friend.

https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.5...=0&w=200&h=176

This particular game was a middle school tourney.

Where I'm not sure: Is that split second touch by the defender that forces the ball into two hands of the dribbler considered "loss of control" or "interrupted dribble"??? I'm not entirely sure and was looking for other opinions on the matter. I'd like to get the call right in a HS game.

The loss of control or interrupted dribble in this context would certainly be in the hundredths of a second range. Is the simple act of the the defender touching the ball enough to allow the dribbler to grab the ball with two hands after they were already dribbling and to start the dribble again?

Raymond Thu Mar 05, 2020 03:22pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by WI_Ref (Post 1038060)
This particular game was a middle school tourney.

Where I'm not sure: Is that split second touch by the defender that forces the ball into two hands of the dribbler considered "loss of control" or "interrupted dribble"??? I'm not entirely sure and was looking for other opinions on the matter. I'd like to get the call right in a HS game.

The loss of control or interrupted dribble in this context would certainly be in the hundredths of a second range. Is the simple act of the the defender touching the ball enough to allow the dribbler to grab the ball with two hands after they were already dribbling and to start the dribble again?

Give the deflection signal. It will satisfy anyone wondering about an illegal dribble.

BillyMac Thu Mar 05, 2020 04:27pm

Fraction Of A Second ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by WI_Ref (Post 1038060)
The loss of control or interrupted dribble in this context would certainly be in the hundredths of a second range. Is the simple act of the the defender touching the ball enough to allow the dribbler to grab the ball with two hands after they were already dribbling and to start the dribble again?

Did the dribbler lose control because of a touch by an opponent, even for a fraction of a second?

If not, illegal dribble.

If so, legal play.

I'm not even sure if "control" in this rule means "player control" (as defined by NFHS rules), or is just a generic "lose control" as defined by Funk and Wagnalls?

9-5 has the word "player" and "control" separated by twenty-one words.

https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.b...=0&w=173&h=163

Robert Goodman Sat Mar 07, 2020 12:30pm

In situations like this, is a player entitled to get a binding answer to, "Sir, may I dribble?"

BillyMac Sat Mar 07, 2020 04:44pm

Deer In The Headlights ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman (Post 1038105)
In situations like this, is a player entitled to get a binding answer to, "Sir, may I dribble?"

In my middle school games, I've often wanted to tell a player in such odd situations (with no question asked) as they stand there like a deer in the headlights, "You can dribble", or, "Don't dribble".

I've resisted the urge, but I've come close.

Robert Goodman Sun Mar 08, 2020 10:07am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1038109)
In my middle school games, I've often wanted to tell a player in such odd situations, as they stand there like a deer in the headlights, "You can dribble", or, "Don't dribble".

I've resisted the urge, but I've come close.

But I mean in response to a direct question. Not whether they should, but whether it's legal, since as we've seen here the answer doesn't always come easy.

BillyMac Sun Mar 08, 2020 11:36am

It Is What It Is ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman (Post 1038105)
In situations like this, is a player entitled to get a binding answer to, "Sir, may I dribble?"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman (Post 1038115)
But I mean in response to a direct question. Not whether they should, but whether it's legal, since as we've seen here the answer doesn't always come easy.

The official's answer (right or wrong) is what it is. No official is going to overrule himself, nor is an official going to lie to a child.

https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.g...=0&w=287&h=162

A few times every season, even in varsity games, a player will ask me (before I get a chance to tell him), "Can I run the endline?", and I always answer truthfully.

And I don't believe that this is a form of coaching.

Raymond Sun Mar 08, 2020 03:05pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1038118)
...

A few times every season, even in varsity games, a player will ask me (before I get a chance to tell him), "Can I run the endline?", and I always answer truthfully.

And I don't believe that this is a form of coaching.

Why would you not? Not only is it common sense, but signals #7 & #8 from the Manual tell us to do so.

There is also 4.2.2.C.6 from the Manual.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

BillyMac Sun Mar 08, 2020 06:19pm

Proactive ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1038118)
A few times every season, even in varsity games, a player will ask me (before I get a chance to tell him), "Can I run the endline?", and I always answer truthfully.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1038121)
Why would you not? Not only is it common sense, but signals #7 & #8 from the Manual tell us to do so. There is also 4.2.2.C.6 from the Manual.

The point that I was making is that officials can, and do, often answer player's questions.

Player on lane before free throw, "How many shots?".

Player behind three point arc before free throw is at disposal, "Can I get on the lane (to fill open spot)?".

I don't see any reason why an official couldn't, or shouldn't, answer the question, "Sir, may I dribble?".

I always signal and state, "Designated spot"; or signal and state, "Run the endline"; on every backcourt endline throwin to be proactive and "by the book".

In my example I was describing a player who himself was being proactive, and asked, "Can I run the endline?", before I signaled and stated such.

BillyMac Mon Mar 09, 2020 10:17am

To Sir, With Love (1967) ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman (Post 1038105)
In situations like this, is a player entitled to get a binding answer to, "Sir, may I dribble?"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1038121)
Why would you not?

Officials should answer the question.

Even if one is a female official.

https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.k...=0&w=150&h=129

bbcowboy Sun Nov 29, 2020 02:10pm

tips the ball on the dribble
 
A dribbles down the court and is confronted by B but no contact just in defensive position. During his dribble, A then tips the ball over the head of B further down the court and retrieves the ball and continues his dribble down the court without picking up the ball.
Is this legal?
Thx

BillyMac Sun Nov 29, 2020 02:25pm

In Over His Head ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bbcowboy (Post 1040273)
A dribbles down the court and is confronted by B but no contact just in defensive position. During his dribble, A then tips the ball over the head of B further down the court and retrieves the ball and continues his dribble down the court without picking up the ball.
Is this legal?

4.15.4 SITUATION D: While dribbling: (a) A1 bats the ball over the head of an opponent, runs around the opponent, bats the ball to the floor and continues to dribble; (b) the ball bounces away but A1 is able to get to it and continues to dribble; (c) the ball hits A1’s foot and bounces away but A1 is able to overtake and pick it up; or (d) A1 fumbles the ball in ending the dribble so that A1 must run to recover it. RULING: Violation in (a), because the ball was touched twice by A1’s hand(s) during a dribble, before it touched the floor. In (b), even though the dribble was interrupted it has not ended and A1 may continue the dribble. In (c), the dribble ended when A1 caught the ball; and it ended in (d) when it was fumbled. Even though the dribble has ended in (c) and (d), A1 may recover the ball but may not dribble again. (9-5)

bob jenkins Sun Nov 29, 2020 02:26pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbcowboy (Post 1040273)
A dribbles down the court and is confronted by B but no contact just in defensive position. During his dribble, A then tips the ball over the head of B further down the court and retrieves the ball and continues his dribble down the court without picking up the ball.
Is this legal?
Thx

If the ball hits the court between this and this AND if this does not meet any of the criteria for ending a dribble, then the play is legal.


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