Illegal Dribble Scenarios
 

I had an illegal dribble call recently and want to confirm my understanding of some scenarios:

1. While in the act of dribbling, A1 loses control of the dribble, the ball then bounces off A2 or B2, A1 regains control of the ball with two hands and then starts dribbling again. ILLEGAL DRIBBLE.
2. A1 while dribbling has the ball slapped away by B1. A1 regains control of the ball with two hands and starts dribbling again. LEGAL. (Rule 9-5-2.)
3. A1 ends their dribble. A1 then passes the ball and it touches A2 or B2. A1 regains control of the ball with two hands and starts dribbling again. LEGAL. (Rule 9-5-3.)
4. A1 ends their dribble. A1 then fumbles the ball and the ball bounces away. The ball then touches A2 or B2. A1 regains control of the ball with two hands and starts dribbling again. LEGAL. (Rule 9-5-3.)

Is my understanding of the above scenarios correct? Thanks all.

1. Only would the ball contacting B2 allow A1 to dribble again.

2. The defender slapped the ball away and that gives anyone with the ball a chance to dribble again. That is legal.

3. Yes, they completed a pass. This is legal regardless of who touches in this case.

4. For the most part legal.

Now when you say touches someone, just touching alone does not allow a player to dribble again. It has to be part of some action that either helped them lost control of the ball or continue an active pass of the ball.

Peace

Interrupted Dribble ...
 

9-5: A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has
ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
ART. 1 A try for field goal.
ART. 2 A touch by an opponent.
ART. 3 A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by,
another player.

I certainly see JRutledge's point (lost control because of ...).

Just not certain about his answer (only would the ball contacting B2 allow A1 to dribble again).

If I end my dribble and I'm just standing there holding the ball and if my teammate comes along and just touches the ball (no loss of control), I can't start a new legal dribble. Right?

If I end my dribble and I'm just standing there holding the ball and if my opponent comes along and just touches the ball (no loss of control), I can't start a new legal dribble. Right?

A1 loses control of the ball as a result his own ineptitude which results in an interrupted dribble. Ball legally touches teammate A2's leg. A1 picks up the loose ball after it touches A2? Can A1 legally start a new dribble?

A1 loses control of the ball as a result his own ineptitude which results in an interrupted dribble. Ball legally touches opponent B2's leg. A1 picks up the loose ball after it touches B2? Can A1 legally start a new dribble?

Is it possible that it could be an illegal second dribble if touched by either A2 or B2?

Neither of them caused A1 to "lose control".

It was A1's own ineptitude that caused him to "lose control" that resulted in an interrupted dribble, not a touch by a teammate or an opponent.

This is where I’m confused. A1, while in the act of dribbling, loses control of the ball totally on their own and the ball bounces away, it then hits A2 or B2 in the back of the leg, A1 then picks up the ball with two hands and starts dribbling again. I think it’s an illegal dribble in both cases. The loss of initial control of the dribble by A1 is not a fumble under 4-21 because the ball didn’t “unintentionally drop or slip from A1’s grasp.” It also doesn’t fit within any of the other illegal dribble exceptions in 9-5.

Thanks again.

Call A Spade A Spade ... ...
 

Let's call it what it is, an interrupted dribble, certainly not a fumble, and continue to discuss from there.

Nice thread RefBob. Should be very educational.

Illegal Dribble ???
 

Wow? 215 views in almost three days and only RefBob, JRutledge, and BillyMac want to comment on this situation?

A1 loses control of the ball as a result his own ineptitude (ball deflects off his shoe) which results in an interrupted dribble. Ball legally touches teammate A2's leg. A1 picks up (catches) the loose ball after it touches A2? Can A1 legally start a new dribble?

A1 loses control of the ball as a result his own ineptitude (ball deflects off his shoe) which results in an interrupted dribble. Ball legally touches opponent B2's leg. A1 picks up (catches) the loose ball after it touches B2? Can A1 legally start a new dribble?

I'm not 100% sure if RefBob is correct, and I'm not 100% sure if JRutledge is correct (although I'm leaning toward RefBob's interpretation.).

It would be nice if some other (and maybe a followup by JRutledge) Forum members stepped up with an opinion.

I've already given a citation to work from:

9-5: A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has
ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
ART. 1 A try for field goal.
ART. 2 A touch by an opponent.
ART. 3 A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by,
another player.

What are you all waiting for, the March Hare?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...March-hare.jpg

There is a rule that states what causes a dribble to end. If one of those 5 conditions are met, then 9-5 applies.

Dribble Ends ...
 

So 9-5 only actually applies if 4-15-4 a,b,or c occurs.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Make Me Lose Control (Eric Carmen, 1988) ...
 

... even without causing the dribbler to lose control?

Keep in mind that in these situations the dribbler loses control of the ball as a result his own ineptitude which results in an interrupted dribble, not as a result of a touch by another player.

This is not a fumble caused by the touch by another player, it's an interrupted dribble (for example, ball dribbled off ball handler's foot).

4-15-4: The dribble ends when: d. The ball touches or is touched by an opponent and causes the dribbler to lose control.

9-5: A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has
ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
ART. 1 A try for field goal.
ART. 2 A touch by an opponent.
ART. 3 A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by,
another player.

That's probably how most of us have officiated it, but it's not what the rule book says.

Listen (Chicago Transit Authority, 1968) …
 

Bingo.

There is no player control during an interrupted dribble. It is called an "interrupted dribble" based on what was happening (player was dribbling) not based on what is currently happening. Ball can hit teammate and original dribbler can retrieve and dribble.

Because Of A Touch By An Opponent ...
 

Agree.

But in this situation the loss of player control was not "because of a touch by an opponent", as required by rule.

In this situation the loss of player control during the interrupted dribble was because of the ball handler's own ineptitude (maybe the dribbled ball hit off his foot).

The "another player" part of the rule isn't relevant because there was no pass, nor was there a fumble, in this situation.

I have deleted 2 responses. I agree with the OP ruling 99%, especially after research and reading NFHS case 4.15.4 Sit D and Sit E. I will get over that 1% hump soon enough.

Let's Go To The Videotape ...
 

4.15.4 SITUATION E: While A1 is dribbling in A’s backcourt, the ball legally touches B1’s leg, causing it to bounce away from A1. A1 quickly recovers the ball with two hands and then starts another dribble. RULING: Legal. The touch by B1 ended the original dribble and A1 could then recover and dribble again. However, the touch by B1 did not end team control and the 10-second backcourt count continues. (9-5-2)

9-5-2: A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of: A touch by an opponent.

9-3 ... a pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched, by another player

So, it comes down to whether an interrupted dribble and a fumble are (or should be) treated the same in these situations. The definitions are nearly identical.

Grasp ... ...
 

4-21: A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball
unintentionally drops or slips from a player’s grasp.

4-15-5: An interrupted dribble occurs when the ball is loose after
deflecting off the dribbler or after it momentarily gets away from the
dribbler. There is no player control during an interrupted dribble.

A fumble involves a "player's grasp", an interrupted dribble doesn't.

I don't see any "grasp" in this situation (the dribbled ball ball deflects off his shoe), until the very end, which is irrelevant.

I believe that Raymond hit the ball out of the park:

Yea, all that makes sense. Now, what if someone holding the ball fumbles it as they begin their initial dribble? Is that to be considered a fumble, as the ball came from the player's grasp, or is it considered to be an interrupted dribble, as the ball got away from the player while attempting to dribble?

Is there anything anywhere that defines or recognizes an interrupted dribble as only being part of action whereby someone has already dribbled at least once? It probably does not matter as it comes down to how you judge the action.

A dribble is an intentional act while a fumble is an unintentional act. If a player begins an initial dribble (intentional act) and it becomes an interrupted dribble that hits a teammate, then they can recover, but not dribble again. If a player, who has not dribbled yet, fumbles (unintentional act) the ball and it hits a teammate, then they can recover and dribble. Agree?


I hope I never have this play happen:

A1 inbounds the ball to A2 in Team A's BC under heavy, full court pressure. A2 attempts a high, cross-court pass that hits Team B's backboard. The ball rebounds and deflects off A1 (who had stepped inbounds), A3, A4, and A5, before being controlled by A2. A2 dribbles and is called for illegal dribble. Doesn't seem right does it?;);)

Fumble ...
 

Yes, assuming that at one point that he had it in his grasp (players can start dribbles in other ways).

4-21: A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball
unintentionally drops or slips from a player’s grasp.

Part Of A Dribble ...
 

A2 throwing the ball and hitting Team B's backboard is considered to be part of a dribble.

In a real game, and with A2's "passed" ball hitting Team B's backboard (that alone would be surprising), and then the ball ricocheting off of several players, I would have probably forgotten that A2 had already dribbled once.

Basketball Rules Fundamentals
19. A ball which touches the front face or edges of the backboard is treated
the same as touching the floor inbounds, except that when the ball touches
the thrower’s backboard, it does not constitute a part of a dribble.

Not after this thread.;)

Wow, thanks all. Very helpful and educational.

No, Thank You ...
 

Hey, it was your thread RefBob.

And it was Raymond who put the game away by hitting a home run.

A little off topic, but would like a confirmation. If A1 has ended dribble with both hands. Throws ball at opponents foot intentionally and recovers the ball after contact on B2. Can A1 still dribble? Does that qualify as a pass that was in contact with an opponent?

Yes. 9-5-3

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Found this:

24-7

Example: A1 ends his dribble and deliberately throws the ball on B1 leg. A1 catches the ball and begins to dribble again.

Interpretation: A1 double dribble violation. A1 dribble has ended as the ball was not touched by B1. It was the ball which has touched B1.

What or where is your reference from?

Rule 9-5-3 directly contradicts what you just posted. Billy posted 9-5-3 above. The case book also directly contradicts what you posted.


9.5.3 SITUATION:

A1 is dribbling in backcourt and ends the dribble, but defensive pressure prevents a pass to A2. A1 then passes the ball so it touches B1. A1 recovers the loose ball in backcourt and dribbles again.

RULING: No violation. When A1's pass was touched by, or touched, another player, he/she may start a new dribble. The 10-second backcourt count continues.

That must be a FIBA interp.

Does FIBA allow this type of play on a throw-in? It would seem to me that the interp should be the same (or follow the same logic).

Just When We Thought We Had It All Figured Out ...
 

Nice ...
 

Nice citation Raymond. Thanks.

Always Listen To bob ...
 

https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.7...=0&w=334&h=164

FIBA 24-7 Example: A1 ends his dribble and deliberately throws the ball on B1 leg. A1 catches the ball and begins to dribble again. Interpretation: A1 double dribble violation. A1 dribble has ended as the ball was not touched by B1. It was the ball which has touched B1.

Metric "semantics" rules.

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.l...=0&w=310&h=175

Thanks BillyMac. Yes FIBA.

https://www.fiba.basketball/rules/interpretations.pdf

Guess I learned another different interpretation between FIBA and Federation.

As God Intended ...
 

Makes me glad that I only officiate high school games, only in the United States, only in Connecticut, only in my little corner of Connecticut, and only under one set of rules, NFHS rules, as God intended.

Extra bonus, because I officiate in Connecticut, almost all of my games are two person games.

Me learn alternate rule sets, interpretations, and mechanics?

Where are my car keys?

While I basically agree I would add that they are not exactly the same play. One involves a pass while the other does not. Probably comes down to semantics but perhaps that FIBA case play was meant to implicate that.

Is there another FIBA case that describes a deflected (by the defense) pass that is retrieved by the passer and dribbling is allowed?

(Pretty odd FIBA case. Consider a pass from A1 that hits an outstretched hand of the defender. The defender had is hand in the position before the ball was thrown. Since the ball hit the hand and not vice versa, can A1 not retrieve and begin dribbling? Have fun selling that call)

Provided A2 is the first to touch the ball. (4.15.4C) In this situation the ball hitting the opponent's backboard means nothing because the ball then was first touched/deflected by teammate(s). A2 can recover the deflected pass and dribble without penalty. Correct?

And FIBA:

24-1 Statement. If a player deliberately throws the ball against a backboard (not attempting a legitimate shot for a field goal), this shall not be considered as a dribble. :D

I cannot find another case which describes a deflection. But we have always allowed a new dribble after a deflection with a deflection signal. I agree with you that both cases are not exactly the same. It's a judgement on the player's intention.

Provided A1 Is First To Touch The Ball ...
 

Nice citation billyu2.

4.15.4 SITUATION C: After dribbling and coming to a stop, A1 throws the ball: (a) against the opponent’s backboard and catches the rebound; (b) against an official, immediately recovers the ball and dribbles again; or (c) against his/her own backboard in an attempt to score (try), catches the rebound and dribbles again. RULING: A1 has violated in both (a) and (b). Throwing the ball against the opponent’s backboard or an official constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it strikes the official or the board. In (c), the action is legal. Once the ball is released on the try, there is no player or team control, therefore, A1 can recover the rebound and begin a dribble.

Correct? Let's discuss.

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.S...=0&w=272&h=185

"Provided A1 is first to touch the ball" in 4.15.4 SITUATION C doesn't, at first blush, appear to address the "weird" situations that we have discussed in this thread.

4.15.4 SITUATION C says what it says (that can't be denied) so we must turn back to the actual wording of the rule for guidance regarding these "weird" circumstances.

9-5: A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has
ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
ART. 1 A try for field goal.
ART. 2 A touch by an opponent.
ART. 3 A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by,
another player.

Basketball Rules Fundamentals
19. A ball which touches the front face or edges of the backboard is treated
the same as touching the floor inbounds, except that when the ball touches
the thrower’s backboard, it does not constitute a part of a dribble.

Consider the ball throw at the backboard to be a bounce pass that is then touched by other players.

billyu2 is correct.

It's difficult to disagree with this very specific interpretation as described in the casebook play.

Nice post billyu2.

Suppose a player is dribbling into traffic and just as the ball is on the way up after hitting the floor(just before dribbler touches) a defender gets a hand in just enough to deflect the ball so that the dribbler catches the ball with both hands. The dribbler continues on and puts the ball right down starting a new dribble. Is this considered a double dribble? It sure looks like one. Would the hand touching be considered loss of control since the dribbler had to grab with two hands instead of the one?

Legal ... ...
 

9-5: A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has
ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
ART. 1 A try for field goal.
ART. 2 A touch by an opponent.
ART. 3 A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by,
another player.

Does "deflect the ball" cause "lost control"?

I'm not exactly sure, that's why I'm asking you fellas. In one sense, control was lost for a normal dribble, in another sense the player kept control of the ball.

For full disclosure, I called an illegal dribble but seeing this thread got me wondering:)

Bigger Fish To Fry ...
 

You have to decide, which is why you get paid the big bucks.

Was there a short-loved, slightly interrupted dribble in the middle of this play?

And please don't lose any sleep over this.

Illegal dribble it is!

No sleep lost! Ha

Interrupted Dribble ...
 

4-15-5: . An interrupted dribble occurs when the ball is loose after -
deflecting off the dribbler or after it momentarily gets away from the
dribbler. There is no player control during an interrupted dribble.

So you decided that the dribble was not interrupted, even in a generic sense (which may have included a momentarily loss of player control), by the opponent's deflection.

So no loss of "control", even in a generic sense.

9-5: A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has
ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
ART. 1 A try for field goal.
ART. 2 A touch by an opponent.
ART. 3 A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by,
another player.

You were there, I wasn't, I could certainly live with your interpretation, but I might have ruled a legal play.

But hey, you probably get paid bigger bucks than me, I've been working middle school games (chronic injury) for the past two seasons.

Who am I to judge (apologies to Pope Francis).

Sleep well my friend.

https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.5...=0&w=200&h=176

This particular game was a middle school tourney.

Where I'm not sure: Is that split second touch by the defender that forces the ball into two hands of the dribbler considered "loss of control" or "interrupted dribble"??? I'm not entirely sure and was looking for other opinions on the matter. I'd like to get the call right in a HS game.

The loss of control or interrupted dribble in this context would certainly be in the hundredths of a second range. Is the simple act of the the defender touching the ball enough to allow the dribbler to grab the ball with two hands after they were already dribbling and to start the dribble again?

Give the deflection signal. It will satisfy anyone wondering about an illegal dribble.

Fraction Of A Second ...
 

Did the dribbler lose control because of a touch by an opponent, even for a fraction of a second?

If not, illegal dribble.

If so, legal play.

I'm not even sure if "control" in this rule means "player control" (as defined by NFHS rules), or is just a generic "lose control" as defined by Funk and Wagnalls?

9-5 has the word "player" and "control" separated by twenty-one words.

https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.b...=0&w=173&h=163

In situations like this, is a player entitled to get a binding answer to, "Sir, may I dribble?"

Deer In The Headlights ...
 

In my middle school games, I've often wanted to tell a player in such odd situations (with no question asked) as they stand there like a deer in the headlights, "You can dribble", or, "Don't dribble".

I've resisted the urge, but I've come close.

But I mean in response to a direct question. Not whether they should, but whether it's legal, since as we've seen here the answer doesn't always come easy.

It Is What It Is ...
 

The official's answer (right or wrong) is what it is. No official is going to overrule himself, nor is an official going to lie to a child.

https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.g...=0&w=287&h=162

A few times every season, even in varsity games, a player will ask me (before I get a chance to tell him), "Can I run the endline?", and I always answer truthfully.

And I don't believe that this is a form of coaching.

Why would you not? Not only is it common sense, but signals #7 & #8 from the Manual tell us to do so.

There is also 4.2.2.C.6 from the Manual.

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Proactive ...
 

The point that I was making is that officials can, and do, often answer player's questions.

Player on lane before free throw, "How many shots?".

Player behind three point arc before free throw is at disposal, "Can I get on the lane (to fill open spot)?".

I don't see any reason why an official couldn't, or shouldn't, answer the question, "Sir, may I dribble?".

I always signal and state, "Designated spot"; or signal and state, "Run the endline"; on every backcourt endline throwin to be proactive and "by the book".

In my example I was describing a player who himself was being proactive, and asked, "Can I run the endline?", before I signaled and stated such.

To Sir, With Love (1967) ...
 

Officials should answer the question.

Even if one is a female official.

https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.k...=0&w=150&h=129

tips the ball on the dribble
 

A dribbles down the court and is confronted by B but no contact just in defensive position. During his dribble, A then tips the ball over the head of B further down the court and retrieves the ball and continues his dribble down the court without picking up the ball.
Is this legal?
Thx

In Over His Head ...
 

If the ball hits the court between this and this AND if this does not meet any of the criteria for ending a dribble, then the play is legal.