End of Game Timing Situation

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by so cal lurker

I'm curious. Can the coach pre-ask for that TO, or does he have to actually ask once his team has possession?

These requests always come with a prerequisite, i.e.: "if we make the free throw I want a time-out", "I want time-out when we get the rebound", etc. If the prerequisite occurs, and nothing else, I go ahead and honor the request.

This is one of those "when in Rome" or "do what's comfortable for you" situations.

[BillyMac]

I often like to scrutinize rules by looking at extremes.

Pregame coaches/captains conference: "Hey BillyMac, I'm going to want a thirty second timeout at the first dead ball after the two minute mark of the first period". BillyMac, "Sure coach, let me write that down."

Also extreme: Team A has the ball in their frontcourt. Team A coach, "Hey BillyMac, I want a sixty second timeout after we score". Team A doesn't' score. Team B gets a rebound and moves upcourt where they shoot and miss. Team A gets a rebound, moves upcourt where they score. BillyMac: "Sixty second timeout granted to Team A". Team A coach, "No, I wanted it back then". BillyMac: "You said you wanted a sixty second timeout after you scored, and you just scored".

Or: Team A has the ball in their frontcourt. Team A coach, "Hey BillyMac, I want a sixty second timeout after we score". Team A doesn't score. Team B gets a rebound and moves upcourt where they shoot and miss. Team A gets a rebound, moves upcourt where they score. No time out is orally or visually requested, nor is one granted. Team B inbounds the ball, easily breaks the hastily set up full court press, and moves upcourt. Team A coach, "Hey BillyMac, I said I wanted a sixty second timeout after we scored, and we just scored. What's the story?".

I'm not a big fan of taking time out reservations in advance, just walk-in timeouts.

But If a coach preorders (sorry, mixed metaphors), I will pay close attention to get his timeout granted in a timely manner.

Again, when in Rome.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I often like to scrutinize rules by looking at extremes.

Pregame coaches/captains conference: "Hey BillyMac, I'm going to want a thirty second timeout at the first dead ball after the two minute mark of the first period". BillyMac, "Sure coach, let me write that down."

Also extreme: Team A has the ball in their frontcourt. Team A coach, "Hey BillyMac, I want a sixty second timeout after we score". Team A doesn't' score. Team B gets a rebound and moves upcourt where they shoot and miss. Team A gets a rebound, moves upcourt where they score. BillyMac: "Sixty second timeout granted to Team A". Team A coach, "No, I wanted it back then". BillyMac: "You said you wanted a sixty second timeout after you scored, and you just scored".

Or: Team A has the ball in their frontcourt. Team A coach, "Hey BillyMac, I want a sixty second timeout after we score". Team A doesn't score. Team B gets a rebound and moves upcourt where they shoot and miss. Team A gets a rebound, moves upcourt where they score. No time out is orally or visually requested, nor is one granted. Team B inbounds the ball, easily breaks the hastily set up full court press, and moves upcourt. Team A coach, "Hey BillyMac, I said I wanted a sixty second timeout after we scored, and we just scored. What's the story?".

I'm not a big fan of taking time out reservations in advance, just walk-in timeouts.

But If a coach preorders (sorry, mixed metaphors), I will pay close attention to get his timeout granted in a timely manner.

Again, when in Rome.

Indeed, slippery slope applies however, that is because you are, essentially, using the entire game as the qualifying scenario.

If an official is going to honor the pre-requests, then the scenario needs to be narrowed, and it is strongly encouraged that you advise the coach to still verbally request it. If not, a coach could always argue that they did not request it earlier, making the official look very bad.

For me, the scenario is narrowed to be only during a certain period of the game. The pre-request is made during dead ball period immediately before live ball period when actual request takes place.

This eliminates your extreme cases and I cannot think of any other times when this protocol would not work as strategically designed by the coach.

IOW, use your judgement when applying this technique. Allow it as strategic points in the game where it would be logical on the coach's part.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bucky

... If an official is going to honor the pre-requests, then the scenario needs to be narrowed, and it is strongly encouraged that you advise the coach to still verbally request it. If not, a coach could always argue that they did not request it earlier, making the official look very bad.

Agree.

I always tell them,"Coach, you still have to request it", and always followup with, "I'll be watching and listening" (letting him know that I heard him and understand the situation).

Don't want, "Hey BillyMac, you screwed up, I changed my mind, I don't want the timeout, I'd rather save them, plus I never orally or visually requested a timeout".

Exactly where in any rulebook, or mechanics manual, is there a coach's visual timeout signal listed?

We all know it when we see it, but where is it listed?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Agree.

I always tell them,"Coach, you still have to request it", and always followup with, "I'll be watching and listening" (letting him know that I heard him and understand the situation).

Don't want, "Hey BillyMac, you screwed up, I changed my mind, I don't want the timeout, I'd rather save them, plus I never orally or visually requested a timeout".

Exactly where in any rulebook, or mechanics manual, is there a coach's visual timeout signal listed?

We all know it when we see it, but where is it listed?

Since you are not comfortable with it, you should not honor such requests. Thus my statement in my original post--->

"This is one of those "when in Rome" or "do what's comfortable for you" situations."

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[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Agree.

I always tell them,"Coach, you still have to request it", and always followup with, "I'll be watching and listening" (letting him know that I heard him and understand the situation).

Don't want, "Hey BillyMac, you screwed up, I changed my mind, I don't want the timeout, I'd rather save them, plus I never orally or visually requested a timeout".

Exactly where in any rulebook, or mechanics manual, is there a coach's visual timeout signal listed?

We all know it when we see it, but where is it listed?

Billy:

I have always done it the same way at all levels that I have officiated and that is how I taught my students to do it the same way. You reasoning for requiring the HC to request the TO is spot on as well as required by Rule.

MTD, Sr.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by Raymond

These requests always come with a prerequisite, i.e.: "if we make the free throw I want a time-out", "I want time-out when we get the rebound", etc. If the prerequisite occurs, and nothing else, I go ahead and honor the request.



This is one of those "when in Rome" or "do what's comfortable for you" situations.

Originally Posted by bucky

IOW, use your judgement when applying this technique. Allow it as strategic points in the game where it would be logical on the coach's part.

I lean toward Raymond (must be a Virginia thing) and also agree with bucky that this concept is amplified at strategic game points, particularly end-of-game scenarios.

My crew applied this perfectly a few weeks ago in a nail biter. Game tied 50-50, 15 seconds left, turnover at division line. I’m C opposite and I can see the coach who just lost possession talking to my partner at T. He had one timeout left and I knew exactly what they were talking about (it didn’t take a rocket scientist). Sure enough, there’s a score (by the time I look up I see 1.9s) and an immediate whistle, but all was drowned out by crowd noise. Timer didn’t hear the whistle, clock expired, home crowd rushed the court. So we’re giving the, “nope, not done yet, everyone get back” body language, and then my partner puts 2.3 back on the clock. He knew the exact time even better than I because the coach had “reserved” the timeout in the event of a score, thereby allowing my partner to think about looking at the clock exactly when he blew the whistle, which he did (and no, he didn’t visually confirm with the coach, he just blew the whistle, and I was proud of him for doing that). When you gotta go the length of the court, that 0.4s difference can be big.

That was my favorite “communication” moment so far this season.


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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Exactly where in any rulebook, or mechanics manual, is there a coach's visual timeout signal listed?

We all know it when we see it, but where is it listed?

Officials don't make the "T signal" when reporting timeouts, we use the "T signal" for another purpose.

I find it odd that while the NFHS allows a visual request for a timeout from a coach, it doesn't state exactly what that visual request should be.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

... he didn’t visually confirm with the coach ...

Did the coach yell, "Time out"?

Even if nobody was looking at him, did the coach give the "T signal"?

Not a rule question, not criticizing, just curious.

This was a highly strategic situation and it sounds like your crew was spot on.

In this situation, even without a pre-request for a timeout, everybody in the crew should be expecting a request for a timeout, and try to get a peek at the clock when the ball goes through the basket.

That's why we get paid the big bucks.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by bucky

What level was this? I find it difficult to believe that anyone, less than a professional, could get off a turnaround 3-point jumper in .8 seconds.

Anyway...The ref who was told about calling the TO should have been prepared to immediately blow his whistle on the defensive rebound and immediately look at the clock in order to have direct knowledge of time. That same official, who knew what was to happen, would have prevented all of the other delays/discussions/etc. and the crew would have looked great at such a crucial time.

Boys varsity.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by so cal lurker

I'm curious. Can the coach pre-ask for that TO, or does he have to actually ask once his team has possession?

This is where philosophy comes into play. I do honor them now if it is a made basket or something like that. Otherwise I tell them to ask anyway. Because I do not want to be ultra concentrating on a rebound or some other action. A made basket is a little more defined and can often easier to judge. A rebound might not result in an immediate possession of the ball.

Peace

[bucky]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I find it odd that while the NFHS allows a visual request for a timeout from a coach, it doesn't state exactly what that visual request should be.

The NFHS also does not state exactly what the oral request should be. There are too many ways (ok, not a whole lot but still more than a few) to make an oral request just as there are too many ways to make a visual request. Ergo, it is not specifically defined.

Strangely, many lower level officials do not hear well and/or are not aware of the coaches. Many times coaches could be screaming "Time-out!!", running towards the ref, and waving arms frantically to no avail. Official finally grants it after a few seconds have passed.