Missed Trip

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by AremRed

I had this play at a camp two weeks ago and I called a technical foul for USB. Clinicians at my court were fine with it but I guess this is a "you had to be there" situation.

Agree.

If it is something you'd call an intentional or flagrant foul for had there been contact, I think you have to have something. And that something is a technical foul. Trying to trip someone ala Grayson Allen is not a basketball play and if you wait to see actual contact, you're going to have bigger problems since there will be 3-4 occurrences of bad behavior you will probably not see.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Agree.

If it is something you'd call an intentional or flagrant foul for had there been contact, I think you have to have something. And that something is a technical foul. Trying to trip someone ala Grayson Allen is not a basketball play and if you wait to see actual contact, you're going to have bigger problems since there will be 3-4 occurrences of bad behavior you will probably not see.

Grayson Allan was not accused of possibly tripping people, he actually did. He was never just accused of trying, he accomplished that fact and was never given a T for such action. He was given Flagrant Fouls for his actual actions.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Grayson Allan was not accused of possibly tripping people, he actually did. He was never just accused of trying, he accomplished that fact and was never given a T for such action. He was given Flagrant Fouls for his actual actions.

Peace

If he tried to trip someone and an official saw it, do you really thing the official would have ignored it? If it tried to trip someone but missed, it is the same is throwing a punch and missing. The attempt itself needs to be addressed.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

If he tried to trip someone and an official saw it, do you really thing the official would have ignored it? If it tried to trip someone but missed, it is the same is throwing a punch and missing. The attempt itself needs to be addressed.

NFHS 4-18: Fighting is a flagrant act and can occur when the ball is dead or live. Fighting includes, but is not limited to combative acts such as: An attempt to strike, punch or kick by using a fist, hands, arms, legs or feet regardless of whether contact is made.

Attempted, but failed, tripping may not quite be the same as attempted, but failed, punching, or attempted, but failed, kicking, but it's worth discussing.

Of course if attempted, but failed, tripping leads to a fight, that may be another permutation of this issue.

[sdoebler]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

NFHS 4-18: Fighting is a flagrant act and can occur when the ball is dead or live. Fighting includes, but is not limited to combative acts such as: An attempt to strike, punch or kick by using a fist, hands, arms, legs or feet regardless of whether contact is made.

Attempted, but failed, tripping may not quite be the same as attempted, but failed, punching, or attempted, but failed, kicking, but it's worth discussing.

Of course if attempted, but failed, tripping leads to a fight, that may be another permutation of this issue.

Agreed this point was also brought up as we have separate rules to address fighting.

Edit reason: When I say "was brought up" we discussed this play in person after it occurred. Didn't feel as though we came to a definitive conclusion which is why I posted here for additional discussion.

[bucky]

IMO, it is a HTBT play. It comes down to the judgement of the official. The official has to judge previous play, the actions that led to it, player's general attitude, intent, body language, etc. BM provided the book material by which a ruling can be made regarding fighting. In the OP, and again, I was not there to see the play, it did not sound as if the missed grab/trip was
"combative" so I don't think a flagrant could have been called. Now, pretend the kid did a giant leg whip, in an attempt to slice the other in half, and missed. Or, swung back with a giant air punch and missed. Those are more combative and worth the flagrant ruling even though no contact was made. So, there is a large gradient of judgment by the official. Let's go to the other side and suggest that the kid was tripped by the hand grab. Again, the official will have to decide how to rule with a lot of factors. Flagrant? Intentional? Common (even though maybe not correct by rule)?

Based on what I read of the OP, I might consider a very strong verbal warning to the kid who attempted the grab. I might notify the coach too as to what I saw and what I told the kid. If the kid attempts the same action again, it seems like a no-brainer to issue a T and no one, specifically the coach, could argue after giving the warning.

Rule 4-19 art 4: "..technical noncontact foul which displays unacceptable conduct." or art 5.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

If he tried to trip someone and an official saw it, do you really thing the official would have ignored it? If it tried to trip someone but missed, it is the same is throwing a punch and missing. The attempt itself needs to be addressed.

In a couple of situations, they did not even see him trip his opponent. So they missed it in a couple of situations altogether. Nothing to ignore, nothing was called.

Peace