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-   -   backcourt violation? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/104557-backcourt-violation.html)

BillyMac Wed May 15, 2019 07:39am

Valid Point ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1032785)
"On the dribble" is the key phrase for me. If it did not return to the hand, then it would not be a dribble.

Not going to quibble about the wording (yes, it could have been the start of an interrupted dribble), but bottom line, my point is a valid point and is not incorrect. Two thought it wasn't backcourt, many didn't, can we move on to Situation #2, which can lead to an interesting discussion.

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...ml#post1032772

Raymond Wed May 15, 2019 10:52am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1032791)
Not going to quibble about the wording (yes, it could have been the start of an interrupted dribble)...

It's not an interrupted dribble until the ball contacts somebody's body part other than either of the dribbler's hands.


Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1032791)
.. Situation #2, which can lead to an interesting discussion.

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...ml#post1032772

The only way this is a confusing situation is if you believe the player is no longer in PC during a dribble when the ball is not in contact with his hand.

BillyMac Wed May 15, 2019 11:45am

"Or", Not "And" ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1032800)
The only way this is a confusing situation is if you believe the player is no longer in PC during a dribble when the ball is not in contact with his hand.

At first, I really liked the reference to player control as a simple way of answering my question.

But there's not a lot about player control in the backcourt rule (some, but not a lot that may be relevant), but there is a little bit more about touching in the rule.

Note: This is the commonly accepted Forum definition, not the NFHS definition:

The four elements for having a backcourt violation are: there must be team control (and initial player control
when coming from a throw-in); the ball must have achieved frontcourt status; the team in team control must
be the last to touch the ball before it goes into the backcourt; that same team must be the first to touch after
the ball has been in the backcourt.


NFHS 9-9-1: Backcourt: A player shall not be the first to touch the ball after it has been
in team control in the frontcourt, if he/she or a teammate last touched or
was touched by the ball in the frontcourt before it went to the backcourt.

I think that I possibly found a better citation:

4-4-1: A ball which is in contact with a player or with the court is in the backcourt if either the ball or the player (either player if the ball is touching more than one) is touching the backcourt.

It states "or", not "and", so while 9-3-1-Note may only apply to out of bounds, not backcourt, 4-4-1 does most certainly apply to backcourt, so a dribbling player does not have to have his hand in contact with the ball for a backcourt violation to be called in Situation #2.

I never check for the hand in contact with the ball when a dribbler touches the division line with his foot in this situation, I just sound my whistle for the backcourt violation and move on. Been doing it that way for almost forty years, thinking I was doing it because of 9-3-1-Note, or purpose and intent. I guess that my interpretation, that I believe to be correct, is based on 4-4-1, not the other citations.

I'm not 100% sure, so would appreciate further discussion (with citations).

BillyMac Wed May 15, 2019 11:58am

Interrupted Dribble ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1032800)
It's not an interrupted dribble until the ball contacts somebody's body part other than either of the dribbler's hands.

Certainly one way to end up with an interrupted dribble, but not the only way.

4-15-5: An interrupted dribble occurs when the ball is loose after deflecting off the dribbler or after it momentarily gets away from the
dribbler. There is no player control during an interrupted dribble.

Raymond Wed May 15, 2019 12:44pm

So I guess in your world if a player pushes off with his off hand in between dribbles it is not a player control foul since he's not touching the ball at that exact moment. I guess he gains and losses player control every time he bats the ball to the floor.

You type so much irrelevant information you lose yourself and forget what the original play was.

A player is dribbling in the front court. In between bats of the ball he steps on the division line. How is it not a backcourt violation since he has continuous player control?

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Raymond Wed May 15, 2019 12:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1032806)
Certainly one way to end up with an interrupted dribble, but not the only way.



4-15-5: An interrupted dribble occurs when the ball is loose after deflecting off the dribbler or after it momentarily gets away from the

dribbler. There is no player control during an interrupted dribble.


I know the definition of ian nterrupted dribble. I don't see what your point is.

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BillyMac Wed May 15, 2019 01:54pm

Not Sure ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1032809)
A player is dribbling in the front court. In between bats of the ball he steps on the division line. How is it not a backcourt violation since he has continuous player control?

I also believe that this is a backcourt violation, but I'm not sure that player control is the correct citation after reading the actual rule as written:

9-9-1: Backcourt: A player shall not be the first to touch the ball after it has been in team control in the frontcourt, if he/she or a teammate last touched or was touched by the ball in the frontcourt before it went to the backcourt.

4-4-1: A ball which is in contact with a player or with the court is in the backcourt if either the ball or the player (either player if the ball is touching more than one) is touching the backcourt.

BillyMac Wed May 15, 2019 02:00pm

Momentarily Get Away From Him ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1032810)
I know the definition of an interrupted dribble. I don't see what your point is.

I'm sure that you do, just wanted to clean your post up a little so others know that there are other ways for a dribble to become interrupted without necessarily contacting a player's body part other than his hands. Other examples include the ball deflecting (uncontrolled) off of his hands (judgment call), or the ball momentarily getting away from him.

BillyMac Wed May 15, 2019 02:24pm

Holding Or Dribbling ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1032809)
So I guess in your world if a player pushes off with his off hand in between dribbles it is not a player control foul since he's not touching the ball at that exact moment. I guess he gains and losses player control every time he bats the ball to the floor.

Never said that.

4-12-1: A player is in control of the ball when he/she is holding or dribbling a live ball.

4-15-1: A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who
bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the
floor once or several times.

Raymond Wed May 15, 2019 02:27pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1032813)
I also believe that this is a backcourt violation, but I'm not sure that player control is the correct citation after reading the actual rule as written:

9-9-1: Backcourt: A player shall not be the first to touch the ball after it has been in team control in the frontcourt, if he/she or a teammate last touched or was touched by the ball in the frontcourt before it went to the backcourt.

4-4-1: A ball which is in contact with a player or with the court is in the backcourt if either the ball or the player (either player if the ball is touching more than one) is touching the backcourt.

All of that is irrelevant. A player who is dribbling has player control. If he steps on the division line, it's a backcourt violation. Doesn't matter if he is dribbling or holding the ball. Player Control = Possession.

4-4-1 accounts for players who DO NOT HAVE PLAYER CONTROL/POSSESSION.

A player who has PC meets all conditions of 9-9-1. He stepped into the back court while in possession of the ball. It is irrelevant if he does so while actually batting the ball or in between bats.

Quit using dictionary definitions. PC equals touching the ball whether there is contact or not with the ball.

Raymond Wed May 15, 2019 02:28pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1032819)
Never said that.

4-12-1: A player is in control of the ball when he/she is holding or dribbling a live ball.

4-15-1: A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who
bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the
floor once or several times.

So why does it matter if he's actually touching the ball when he steps on the division line?

BillyMac Wed May 15, 2019 02:46pm

Player Control ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1032820)
A player who is dribbling has player control. If he steps on the division line, it's a backcourt violation. He stepped into the back court while in possession of the ball. It is irrelevant if he does so while actually batting the ball or in between bats. PC equals touching the ball whether there is contact or not with the ball.

Agree with your definition of player control. Agree that this is a backcourt violation. Fuzzy on the irrelevant part. Touching seems to be relevant, not necessarily player control, to the backcourt rule.

9-9-1: Backcourt: A player shall not be the first to touch the ball after it has been in team control in the frontcourt, if he/she or a teammate last touched or was touched by the ball in the frontcourt before it went to the backcourt.

No mention of player control in the rule (other then needing player control to establish team control).

4-4-1 seems to be say that if either the ball or the player touches backcourt it's the same as if both touched the backcourt.

4-4-1: A ball which is in contact with a player or with the court is in the backcourt if either the ball or the player is touching the backcourt.

I'm still not certain, and I'm still looking for relevant citations.

Maybe 9-3-1-Note (A player shall not cause the ball to go out of bounds. The dribbler has committed a violation if he/she steps on or outside a boundary, even though he/she is not touching the ball while he/she is out of bounds) is the correct citation?

BillyMac Wed May 15, 2019 02:48pm

Touching ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1032821)
So why does it matter if he's actually touching the ball when he steps on the division line?

Because player control doesn't appear to be part of the backcourt rule.

"While in player control, a ball handler, or dribbler, must not step into the backcourt", would be nice, but it's not the rule.

That's the way I call it every time, but it's not the rule.

We need to throw in 4-4-1, or 9-3-1-Note, or purpose and intent, or something else I'm missing, to complete the rule interpretation.

Raymond Wed May 15, 2019 02:51pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1032824)
Because player control doesn't appear to be part of the backcourt rule.

So if I'm holding the ball in the front court I can step on the division line? (Based on you totally overthinking the rule, you are saying that a player can legally do this)

How is that any different than stepping on the division line while dribbling the ball in the front court.

To quote another post: 4-12-1: A player is in control of the ball when he/she is holding or dribbling a live ball.

Raymond Wed May 15, 2019 02:55pm

I'll sit here and wait while you explain why a player with FC status holding the ball is any different than a player with FC status dribbling the ball or how 9-9-1 doesn't apply.


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