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-   -   backcourt violation? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/104557-backcourt-violation.html)

BillyMac Mon May 13, 2019 02:07pm

Advanced Question ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bbcowboy (Post 1032717)
2--Player dribbles parallel to the division line and adjacent to the division line in his frontcourt. While dribbling, he places one foot on the division line, but the other foot and the ball remain in the frontcourt. Is this a backcourt violation?

Next question.

Does the hand have to be in contact with the ball for the backcourt violation to be called? What if the foot in on the division line while the ball is mid-dribble (not being touched by the ball handler at that second), and then the foot comes off the division line back into the frontcourt when the dribbler next touches the ball?

9-3-1-Note: A player shall not cause the ball to go out of bounds. The dribbler has committed a violation if he/she steps on or outside a boundary, even though he/she is not touching the ball while he/she is out of bounds.

The citation above twice mentions out of bounds.

Boundary is mentioned once.

The division line is a boundary line, but it's not out of bounds.

The citation is 9-3-1-Note.

9-3 deals with Out Of Bounds.

9-9 deals with Backcourt.

I never check for the hand in contact with the ball when a dribbler touches the division line with his foot in this situation, I just sound my whistle for the backcourt violation and move on.

Is that technically and/or literally correct?

Or is it only correct by purpose and intent?

Or is it incorrect?

bucky Mon May 13, 2019 04:54pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1032748)
Why didn't you say so earlier?

The poster did when he indicated "dribbling";)

BillyMac Mon May 13, 2019 05:18pm

Does Anyone Refer To Grasshopper Any More ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1032752)
The poster did when he indicated "dribbling"

Ah, young grasshopper, there are many parts to dribbling.

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.S...=0&w=238&h=172

Raymond Tue May 14, 2019 08:22am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1032752)
The poster did when he indicated "dribbling";)

That would be the common sense assumption.

How many fans and inexperienced officials would think they have to explicitly state the ball returned to the player's hand?

BillyMac Tue May 14, 2019 09:40am

The Untouchables ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1032762)
How many fans and inexperienced officials would think they have to explicitly state the ball returned to the player's hand?

How many experienced officials would think they have to explicitly state the ball returned to the player's hand?

Not sure about the relevance of either of these questions, but bottom line, the ball does have to return to the hand, both on a written test, and in a real game, for this to be a violation.

Any official that calls this violation when the ball first touches the backcourt, without waiting for the next offensive touch, could be open for a little criticism, maybe not from most fans, or from inexperienced officials, but from experienced officials observing, or a few knowledgeable fans, or perhaps even a few knowledgeable coaches, especially if the ball takes an odd bounce and bounces a few feet away from the dribbler, untouched, into the backcourt.

Even little kids seem to know the rule. If one officiates little kids long enough, eventually one will observe a little kid, who in this situation, knows that they can't be the first to touch the ball, so they follow the ball closely, with both hands ready to grab the ball after an opponent barely touches it. This, of course, never works. The dribbler either grabs the ball first, or the opponent grabs the ball first. I've been playing, coaching, officiating, and observing basketball games for fifty-five years and I've never observed this "play" work. Never. Ever. But it's always fun watching little kids try it. And, maybe, someday I'll see it work. There can always be a first time.

https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.S...=0&w=242&h=162

I've observed high school players, in this situation, avoid a backcourt violation by following the ball, but not touching it, oddly choosing an out of bounds violation instead of a backcourt violation, sometimes leading to an oddly advantageous throwin for the opponents.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbcowboy (Post 1032717)
Player dribbles parallel to the division line and adjacent to the division line in his frontcourt. While dribbling, he has both feet in the front court, but the ball touches the floor on the dribble in the backcourt. Is this a backcourt violation?

Regardless of the frontcourt status of the feet and the ball, this play (original post above) as written (before bbcowboy's Post #14 additional information), is never a backcourt violation. The ball touching the floor in the backcourt (alone) does not make this a backcourt violation. Something else (an offensive touch), unwritten in the original post, needs to happen for this to be a backcourt violation. If it's a controlled dribble, it's probably going to happen (offensive touch and thus, backcourt), but if the dribble takes an odd bounce and bounces a few feet away from the dribbler, untouched, into the backcourt, it doesn't become a backcourt violation until that offensive touch happens, so, in this specific case, it's important that officials don't sound a premature whistle.

While I may be at fault for not reading something into the original post that's definitely not there, one can also be faulted for reading something into the original post that's definitely not there. My takeaway point throughout this thread: The ball has to return to the hand, both on a written test, and in a real game, for this to be a violation, and I believe, especially for young'uns, that this is a valid point to make in situations like this.

Raymond Tue May 14, 2019 10:35am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1032764)
How many experienced officials would think they have to explicitly state the ball returned to the player's hand?



Not sure about the relevance of either of these questions, but bottom line, the ball does have to return to the hand, both on a written test, and in a real game, for this to be a violation.



Any official that calls this violation when the ball first touches the backcourt, without waiting for the next offensive touch, could be open for a little criticism, maybe not from most fans, or from inexperienced officials, but from experienced officials observing, or a few knowledgeable fans, or perhaps even a few knowledgeable coaches, especially if the ball takes an odd bounce and bounces a few feet away from the dribbler, untouched, into the backcourt.



Even little kids seem to know the rule. If one officiates little kids long enough, eventually one will observe a little kid, who in this situation, knows that they can't be the first to touch the ball, so they follow the ball closely, with both hands ready to grab the ball after an opponent barely touches it. This, or course, never works. The dribbler either grabs the ball first, or the opponent grabs the ball first. I've been playing, coaching, officiating, and observing basketball games for fifty-five years and I've never observed this "play" work. Never. Ever. But it's always fun watching little kids try it. And, maybe, someday I'll see it work. There can always be a first time.



https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.S...=0&w=242&h=162



I've observed high school players, in this situation, avoid a backcourt violation by following the ball, but not touching it, oddly choosing an out of bounds violation instead of a backcourt violation, sometimes leading to an oddly advantageous throwin for the opponents.







Regardless of the frontcourt status of the feet and the ball, this play (original post above) as written (before bbcowboy's Post #14 additional information), is never a backcourt violation. The ball touching the floor in the backcourt (alone) does not make this a backcourt violation. Something else (an offensive touch), unwritten in the original post, needs to happen for this to be a backcourt violation. If it's a controlled dribble, it's probably going to happen (offensive touch and thus, backcourt), but if the dribble takes an odd bounce and bounces a few feet away from the dribbler, untouched, into the backcourt, it doesn't become a backcourt violation until that offensive touch happens, so, in this specific case, it's important that officials don't sound a premature whistle.

How about this Billy? Wheb somebody says a player is dribbling, we're going to assume the ball returns to his hands unless it is explicitly stated that it did not.

That's what normal people do.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

BillyMac Tue May 14, 2019 10:43am

No Ifs, Ands, Or Buts ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1032767)
When somebody says a player is dribbling, we're going to assume the ball returns to his hands unless it is explicitly stated that it did not.

Here's the explicit qualifying statement, the ending statement of the original post's description the situation: "but the ball touches the floor on the dribble in the backcourt". That's how the description ends.

Are you saying that me stating that he ball has to return to the hand for this to be a violation is not a valid point to make in situations (written test, or real life game) like this?

Raymond Tue May 14, 2019 10:46am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1032768)
Here's the explicit qualifying statement, the ending statement of the original post's description the situation: but the ball touches the floor on the dribble in the backcourt. That's how the description ends.

Everyone, other than you knew what he meant

Anything to keep your word and post count up.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

BillyMac Tue May 14, 2019 10:58am

Horton Hears A Who ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1032769)
Everyone, other than you knew what he meant

Everyone? Then why did bob jenkins agree with me?

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1032743)
I agree it wouldn't be a backcourt violation.

I kinda knew what bbcowboy meant, but wanted it further qualified, which bbcowboy kindly replied to.

Note: Original question could have been presented better, with ODog's and JRutledge's questions regarding frontcourt status, and my question about a second offensive touch.

Again,
Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1032768)
Are you saying that me stating that he ball has to return to the hand for this to be a violation is not a valid point to make in situations (written test, or real life game) like this?

Valid point, or not?

BillyMac Tue May 14, 2019 11:15am

Talk Amongst Yourselves (Coffee Talk) ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1032769)
Anything to keep your word and post count up.

Would like to see some discussion regarding original post situation #2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbcowboy (Post 1032717)
2 Player dribbles parallel to the division line and adjacent to the division line in his frontcourt. While dribbling, he places one foot on the division line, but the other foot and the ball remain in the frontcourt, Is this a backcourt violation?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1032749)
Does the hand have to be in contact with the ball for the backcourt violation to be called? What if the foot in on the division line while the ball is mid-dribble (not being touched by the ball handler at that second), and then the foot comes off the division line back into the frontcourt when the dribbler next touches the ball?

9-3-1-Note: A player shall not cause the ball to go out of bounds. The dribbler has committed a violation if he/she steps on or outside a boundary, even though he/she is not touching the ball while he/she is out of bounds.

The citation above twice mentions out of bounds. Boundary is mentioned once. The division line is a boundary line, but it's not out of bounds. The citation is 9-3-1-Note. 9-3 deals with Out Of Bounds. 9-9 deals with Backcourt.

I never check for the hand in contact with the ball when a dribbler touches the division line with his foot in this situation, I just sound my whistle for the backcourt violation and move on. Is that technically and/or literally correct? Or is it only correct by purpose and intent? Or is it incorrect?

Maybe I've been doing it wrong all these years.

JRutledge Tue May 14, 2019 12:44pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1032769)
Everyone, other than you knew what he meant

Anything to keep your word and post count up.

Basically. And he posted two more times with multiple quotes after you made this comment. LOL!!!!

Peace

BillyMac Tue May 14, 2019 01:03pm

I'm A Cheap Bastard ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1032775)
... posted two more times ...

I must maintain my Esteemed Forum Member status. If I don't post enough, I lose my Esteemed Forum Member status, but more importantly, I lose my Esteemed Forum Member discount and have to pay Regular Forum Member annual dues.

LRZ Tue May 14, 2019 01:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1032777)
I must maintain my Esteemed Forum Member status. If I don't post enough, I lose my Esteemed Forum Member status, but more importantly, I lose my Esteemed Forum Member discount and have to pay Regular Forum Member annual dues.

If you slow down--just a bit--I'll open a kickstarter account to cover your dues.

BillyMac Tue May 14, 2019 02:17pm

I Miss Mark Padgett ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by LRZ (Post 1032778)
If you slow down--just a bit--I'll open a kickstarter account to cover your dues.

It appears that Mark Padgett has hung up is whistle for good. Hopefully he didn't get it stuck in his pants zipper.

He always told me that he was the Official Forum treasurer and that I must send him my annual Official Forum dues, in small, unmarked, non-sequential serial numbers, US currency. And would always give me the Esteemed Forum Member annual dues discount.

Who's the Official Forum treasurer now? Do I still get my Esteemed Forum Member annual dues discount? Must Official Forum annual dues still be paid in small, unmarked, non-sequential serial numbers, US currency? Or can I just provide my checking account routing number and account number?

I miss Mark Padgett. When he wasn't joking around, which was almost all the time, he had a lot to add to Forum discussions regarding basketball officiating, especially recreation level basketball.

I also loved his "hard nosed, blue collar, south side of Chicago" philosophy.

Even though he lived in Oregon, and was a pot smoking, tree hugging, pig heart transplanted, Jewish hippie, he was always, first, a proud Chicagoan.

And, of course, he was our resident Law and Order expert.

https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.L...=0&w=292&h=164

bucky Tue May 14, 2019 10:02pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1032768)
Here's the explicit qualifying statement, the ending statement of the original post's description the situation: "but the ball touches the floor on the dribble in the backcourt". That's how the description ends.

Are you saying that me stating that he ball has to return to the hand for this to be a violation is not a valid point to make in situations (written test, or real life game) like this?

I will say it regarding situations like this.

You quoted it as "the ball touches the floor on the dribble in the backcourt."

"On the dribble" is the key phrase for me. If it did not return to the hand, then it would not be a dribble. To me that sounds far more logical than your point.

Love you BM.


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